Leopard Tort tank/soft shell/I am in over my head

[Squirtle80]

Hi! We got a leopard tortoise hatchling as a gift in January, and we've just been doing what the breeder recommended. But now his shell feels softer than I remember, and after reading through posts here all day I know I've been doing it ALL WRONG. He's been in a 20 gallon (I think it's 20 gallon) tank with vermiculite for the bedding. Dry. Horribly dry. And now I feel HORRIBLY HORRIBLE and want to get him set up properly. He does have a black, circle light fixture with the red heat light bulb and another with a uvb light bulb. I do soak him daily, he has a small water dish, he eats green leaf lettuce and goes outside for about an hour a day in an enclosure I hastily put together, so he eats grass and dandelions, rose leaves and petals that my son tosses in to him.

So now you've seen what I've done wrong, and I want to fix things, but I don't know some of the lingo I've read. What is CHE and MVB? Why is pyramiding bad? I'm going to a reptile store in Fresno in a week to get a new tank (24" x 36" x 12" high) which I know is not big enough, but it's the best I can do currently. I plan on building a better "tortoise run" in the back yard this coming week so he'll have that area also.

Please, just tell me what I need to buy and I'll get it. I found a thermometer gun on amazon so that will be here soon, but which substrate does he need, and how often do you change it out? I tried sphagnum moss but it was really prickly even after soaking it in water and the tortoise didn't seem to like walking around on it. Oh! And do I need a heating pad or something under the tank to keep the bedding/substrate warm enough?

I'm sorry for the novel length post. I'm just feeling very overwhelmed and even more guilty that I've been doing this all wrong.

 

[TechnoCheese]

Welcome to the forum! Please give these a read ASAP-

How To Raise A Healthy Sulcata Or Leopard, Version 2.0 https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php...ealthy-Sulcata-Or-Leopard,-Version-2.0.79895/



For Those Who Have a Young Sulcata... https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/For-Those-Who-Have-a-Young-Sulcata....76744/

Beginner Mistakes https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/Beginner-Mistakes.45180/

It sounds like you got some terrible advice from the breeder, and a lot needs to change.

-get rid of the red light. Not only do red lights make them eat their substrate, but they can see both the color and light so it keeps them up at night and messes with their head because it makes their world red. Replace it with a 75 watt Phillips brand flood light(BR30 type or something like that), and a ceramic heat emitter(CHE). You need to be keeping the enclosure 80 degrees and above in the coolest part of the enclosure, day and night, with a 95-100 degree basking spot.

-your substrate needs to be changed to orchid bark, peat moss, coco coir, or cypress mulch. You need a closed chamber enclosure to hold 80-100% humidity.

- pyramiding isn’t necessary harmful in itself, but the way you get pyramiding is harmful. When a tortoise is pyramiding, it’s usually being kept too dry, or with desiccating bulbs. Pyramiding itself can, however, make it harder for a tortoise to flip itself back over if they flip, and can keep them from mating.

-You should not be using a heat pad. Tortoises have evolved to absorb heat from above, and cannot feel heat in their plastron so they can be burnt.

I would not buy a tank. Just find the biggest plastic tub you can find, and cut holes in the lid/line them with foil for the lights. It’s much cheaper, and much better at holding humidity.

The soft shell might be a problem. Since this tortoise was kept in dry conditions both with the breeder and you for the beginning of its life, it could be suffering from hatchling failure syndrome. There’s no guarantee that it is, but look out for these symptoms-
"Hatchling Failure Syndrome"

https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php...p?threads/"Hatchling-Failure-Syndrome".23493/

Could we see pictures of the tortoise and enclosure?

 

[Squirtle80]

Welcome to the forum! Please give these a read ASAP-

How To Raise A Healthy Sulcata Or Leopard, Version 2.0 https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/How-To-Raise-A-Healthy-Sulcata-Or-Leopard,-Version-2.0.79895/



For Those Who Have a Young Sulcata... https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/For-Those-Who-Have-a-Young-Sulcata....76744/

Beginner Mistakes https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/Beginner-Mistakes.45180/

It sounds like you got some terrible advice from the breeder, and a lot needs to change.

-get rid of the red light. Not only do red lights make them eat their substrate, but they can see both the color and light so it keeps them up at night and messes with their head because it makes their world red. Replace it with a 75 watt Phillips brand flood light(BR30 type or something like that), and a ceramic heat emitter(CHE). You need to be keeping the enclosure 80 degrees and above in the coolest part of the enclosure, day and night, with a 95-100 degree basking spot.

-your substrate needs to be changed to orchid bark, peat moss, coco coir, or cypress mulch. You need a closed chamber enclosure to hold 80-100% humidity.

- pyramiding isn’t necessary harmful in itself, but the way you get pyramiding is harmful. When a tortoise is pyramiding, it’s usually being kept too dry, or with desiccating bulbs. Pyramiding itself can, however, make it harder for a tortoise to flip itself back over if they flip, and can keep them from mating.

-You should not be using a heat pad. Tortoises have evolved to absorb heat from above, and cannot feel heat in their plastron so they can be burnt.

I would not buy a tank. Just find the biggest plastic tub you can find, and cut holes in the lid/line them with foil for the lights. It’s much cheaper, and much better at holding humidity.

The soft shell might be a problem. Since this tortoise was kept in dry conditions both with the breeder and you for the beginning of its life, it could be suffering from hatchling failure syndrome. There’s no guarantee that it is, but look out for these symptoms-
"Hatchling Failure Syndrome"

https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/"Hatchling-Failure-Syndrome".23493/https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/"Hatchling-Failure-Syndrome".23493/

Could we see pictures of the tortoise and enclosure?

Thanks for the reply! The reason we were planning on getting the glass tank is so my children can still see Squirtle, and to make it easier to check on him throughout the day.
I feed him about 3 times a day plus he eats grass outside, is that too much? I have had a desert tortoise for years so I'm used to him grazing whenever he's hungry (plus he gets the occasional spring mix or kale, usually after the lawn has been mowed). Tiny hatchlings are so much different!
I will try to upload a few pics.

 

[Squirtle80]

This was taken yesterday

 

[Squirtle80]

This was when we first got him.

 

[Yvonne G]

Oh my. . . in yesterday's picture do you see how much of the substrate is on the food he's eating? That's a pretty dangerous thing. That vermiculite gums up into stuck together balls inside the digestive tract and could cause impaction. This would be a very bad thing - either death or expensive vet bills.

I like to use orchid bark. It's manufactured for folks who raise orchids and is a pure product, with no pesticides, fertilizers or additives. I buy the small or fine particles. With orchid bark, if they eat it accidently it doesn't cause impaction, passing through harmlessly. Also, with orchid bark (fir bark) you can keep the substrate moist, and a moist, warm environment is what helps your leopard tortoise to grow a smooth shell. Here's a picture of one of my leopard tortoises at about the same size as yours. Note the smooth shell:

 

[Yvonne G]

CHE - Ceramic Heat Emitter:


MVB - Mercury Vapor Bulb:

 

[Squirtle80]

Oh my. . . in yesterday's picture do you see how much of the substrate is on the food he's eating? That's a pretty dangerous thing. That vermiculite gums up into stuck together balls inside the digestive tract and could cause impaction. This would be a very bad thing - either death or expensive vet bills.

I like to use orchid bark. It's manufactured for folks who raise orchids and is a pure product, with no pesticides, fertilizers or additives. I buy the small or fine particles. With orchid bark, if they eat it accidently it doesn't cause impaction, passing through harmlessly. Also, with orchid bark (fir bark) you can keep the substrate moist, and a moist, warm environment is what helps your leopard tortoise to grow a smooth shell. Here's a picture of one of my leopard tortoises at about the same size as yours. Note the smooth shell:

View attachment 252039

Is this what you use?

 

[Yvonne G]

It's hard to tell from the picture, but it usually comes in three 'kibble' sizes. I like to use the smallest kibble size. Here's the brand I buy, but any brand will do:

 

[Yvonne G]

Since you're in Bakersfield, maybe you have an Orchard Supply Hardware there? They're going out of business, but that's where I buy my orchid bark. You might be able to find it at a discount because of the going out of business thing.

 

[Yvonne G]

The title of your thread says you're worried that your tortoise has a soft shell. I wanted to make sure you understood the importance of having calcium along with UVB. Feed your tortoise calcium-rich greens, with a tiny sprinkle of calcium powder over the food about three times a week. Make sure the tortoise is exposed to UVB either from the sun or from a GOOD UVB light. Without the UVB the calcium just goes right on through the tortoise and doesn't work inside the body to make strong bones and shell.

 

[Squirtle80]

The title of your thread says you're worried that your tortoise has a soft shell. I wanted to make sure you understood the importance of having calcium along with UVB. Feed your tortoise calcium-rich greens, with a tiny sprinkle of calcium powder over the food about three times a week. Make sure the tortoise is exposed to UVB either from the sun or from a GOOD UVB light. Without the UVB the calcium just goes right on through the tortoise and doesn't work inside the body to make strong bones and shell.

Thank you sooooooooooooo much for all your replies! I will look up if we have an osh. Is being outside for an hour or 2 a day enough uvb or does he still need the light inside? And I'm stopping at Petsmart today to get calcium powder. I'm assuming the container will say how much to use?

 

[Squirtle80]

What wattage would you recommend for the MVB?

 

[TechnoCheese]

What wattage would you recommend for the MVB?

I personally wouldn’t recommend a MVB for a leopard. Leopards pyramid easily, and MVBs are very desiccating bulbs. And with the drastic pyramiding your tort already has, it would only make it worse.

If you already take the tort out every day, you don’t need a uvb bulb. If you don’t, I would just get a strip uvb, a flood bulb(not a spot bulb or “intense” bulb), and a CHE for night/keeping temps up.

 

[Squirtle80]

I personally wouldn’t recommend a MVB for a leopard. Leopards pyramid easily, and MVBs are very desiccating bulbs. And with the drastic pyramiding your tort already has, it would only make it worse.

If you already take the tort out every day, you don’t need a uvb bulb. If you don’t, I would just get a strip uvb, a flood bulb(not a spot bulb or “intense” bulb), and a CHE for night/keeping temps up.

Our winters aren't FREEZING, but they do get cold and I'm not sure it would be good for him to be outside in the sun when it's in the 50's. I'm also looking into finding a used 100 gallon tank on craigslist and facebook marketplace so the lights will be up higher since that tank is really tall. Would that affect the efficacy of the heat lights?

 

[TechnoCheese]

Our winters aren't FREEZING, but they do get cold and I'm not sure it would be good for him to be outside in the sun when it's in the 50's. I'm also looking into finding a used 100 gallon tank on craigslist and facebook marketplace so the lights will be up higher since that tank is really tall. Would that affect the efficacy of the heat lights?

I would seriously recommend just getting a huge clear plastic tub, or a solid colored one but with the front cut off and plexiglass in place. It is going to be pretty hard to keep the humidity you need in a tank.

However, if you are completely set on a tank, you will need to cover the entire top to where there’s little to no ventilation, and have the lights on the inside.

Since your winters are too cold for a tort, I would just get a uvb tube. They’re cheaper than MVBs I’m the long run, and much better for your tortoise.

Keep in mind that with the soft shell, the dry start, lack of uvb, and vermiculite, the tortoise MIGHT be suffering from “Hatchling failure disease”. Be sure to read the link I gave you if you haven’t already.

 

[Squirtle80]

I would seriously recommend just getting a huge clear plastic tub, or a solid colored one but with the front cut off and plexiglass in place. It is going to be pretty hard to keep the humidity you need in a tank.
Just want to make sure this is the right thing before I order.
However, if you are completely set on a tank, you will need to cover the entire top to where there’s little to no ventilation, and have the lights on the inside.

Since your winters are too cold for a tort, I would just get a uvb tube. They’re cheaper than MVBs I’m the long run, and much better for your tortoise.

Keep in mind that with the soft shell, the dry start, lack of uvb, and vermiculite, the tortoise MIGHT be suffering from “Hatchling failure disease”. Be sure to read the link I gave you if you haven’t already.

 

[TechnoCheese]

Yep, that’s a good one

 

[Squirtle80]

I would seriously recommend just getting a huge clear plastic tub, or a solid colored one but with the front cut off and plexiglass in place. It is going to be pretty hard to keep the humidity you need in a tank.

However, if you are completely set on a tank, you will need to cover the entire top to where there’s little to no ventilation, and have the lights on the inside.

Since your winters are too cold for a tort, I would just get a uvb tube. They’re cheaper than MVBs I’m the long run, and much better for your tortoise.

Keep in mind that with the soft shell, the dry start, lack of uvb, and vermiculite, the tortoise MIGHT be suffering from “Hatchling failure disease”. Be sure to read the link I gave you if you haven’t already.

I can't get that link to work, and I searched for hatchling failure but only came up with other posts similar to mine.

I would seriously recommend just getting a huge clear plastic tub, or a solid colored one but with the front cut off and plexiglass in place. It is going to be pretty hard to keep the humidity you need in a tank.

However, if you are completely set on a tank, you will need to cover the entire top to where there’s little to no ventilation, and have the lights on the inside.

Since your winters are too cold for a tort, I would just get a uvb tube. They’re cheaper than MVBs I’m the long run, and much better for your tortoise.

Keep in mind that with the soft shell, the dry start, lack of uvb, and vermiculite, the tortoise MIGHT be suffering from “Hatchling failure disease”. Be sure to read the link I gave you if you haven’t already.

I can't get the link you posted about hatchling failure to work. When I search "hatchling failure" it only pulls up question posts like mine :/

 

[TechnoCheese]

I can't get that link to work, and I searched for hatchling failure but only came up with other posts similar to mine.

I can't get the link you posted about hatchling failure to work. When I search "hatchling failure" it only pulls up question posts like mine :/

"Hatchling Failure Syndrome"
https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/"Hatchling-Failure-Syndrome".23493/

Maybe try copy/pasting the link into your browser?