Hatchling Failure Syndrome?

[OMary]

I bought 2 Hermann's hatchlings in October. They are housed together. One is thriving and always has been. The other has always had less activity, and it has gotten worse. The vet can't find anything, except possible dehydration (a couple spots of shed on her face that the other didn't have). I have increased humidity to 60-80%, increased daily soaks from 10-15 min to 30 min. This has helped a small amount (she wakes up most mornings), but it isn't enough. She isn't growing, and the other one is doing wonderfully.

A friend also bought 2 Hermann's from same place. She had the same situation- one thrived, the other kept declining, shell softened, and died. I am afraid we are going to meet the same fate, and have recently thought about putting the tort down. Is there anything I can do to improve her condition?

 

[Jodie]

Try separating them. Often one is dominant and the other one is so stressed it won't eat, drink or bask.

 

[dmmj]

I would try separating them as well. the main problem is as if they were started dry it damages the organs and it slowly dies but before you consider putting it down I would try separating them into different enclosures and see if that helps

 

[OMary]

Would it have been like this from the beginning though and at this age? It does bask all the time- rarely isn't basking. It drinks fairly often (the healthy one rarely does); it sits in the food dish but is really slow and almost clumsy at eating, returns to bask but doesn't make it back to the food dish often. Sometimes the other one is in the food dish at the same time, and other times not. The healthy one likes to eat a bit, do some cage laps, and return.

 

[OMary]

Okay, I will try separation. Their enclosure is somewhat divided into 2 parts, so I will confine them each to a part.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

Is there anything I can do to improve her condition?

Though I have zero experience with herrmans tortoises, the best thing you can do to help things along is to setup a second enclosure and house them separately. Tortoises, by nature, are solitary critters and see others as a threat. One ends up the dominate one and the other the submissive one. The submissive one ends up with less quality food, a poor basking spot, and less than ideal conditions for life. Here on The Forum, we are very lucky to have a "Specie Specific" section were you can find all kinds of great information to help keep your two new family members thriving.
Welcome to The Forum, I, for one, am happy you've found us. Ask questions and learn. We also love pictures!

 

[Kori5]

Please don't put him down to sleep. They are very tough animals, although it may not seem that way in your situation. Give him a chance in his own enclousure, give him supplements and I'm sure you'll see an improvement . Also, I know it is not recommended as they tend to get spoiled, but you can try hand feeding to encourage him to eat. Buy some Mazuri, too. It is a nice pellet food you can add to his diet a few days a week.

 

[naturalman91]

i'm not versed on the species but i know they're are no tortoise species that can be kept in pair's it almost sounds like one is being dominant and stressing the other out when you see them both basking in the same area they're competing for the best spot when you see them crammed in the same hide they're competing for that to they'll compete with everything and when reach sexual maturity one may start raping the other one which causes damage

tort's unless housed in a big group with more females then males need to be separated into they're own enclosure so they can each be the king of they're own castle. once you separate it will take the tort time to realize it's on it's own and doesn't have to compete/worry about the other tort but i'd thrive better i'd say

 

[Lyn W]

Glad you are going to separate. I hope he enjoys and does better in his own space.

This is a good example of what tort behaviour can be like in pairs.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...together-a-lesson-learned-the-hard-way.94114/

 

[Pawciorc]

Is it possible that one is dominating another if they are hatchlings? I believe those behaviours develop during pubescence...

 

[OMary]

That is what I have thought, too, Pawciorc. I did buy them knowing that I may very well separate as they mature or add to the group, whichever I felt I had more room for and depending on sex. I just don't see these 2 bullying at this age. They came from the breeder kept in a group. They arrived with one having less activity. I am not seeing one ending up with less quality food, or them huddled competing for spots. The basking area is so large for their enclosure that I could have 10 hatchlings huddled there. Both have opportunity in the food dish alone, and the "sick" one will eat flowers and more variety than the other one will- the healthy one is much pickier.

So I will separate, but my hopes aren't high. I will not, however, feed Mazuri. It's crap. I do supplement with a little Repashy Grassland Grazer (she loves it) and do supplements (Miner-All Indoor and Supervite).

 

[Kori5]

Mazuri isn't crap. Many long term keepers/breeders have been using it sucesfully for years and they have beautiful and healthy animals.

 

[dmmj]

I don't think its strict dominance that you see but at any age they just don't like company usually any other tortoise is seen as competition for everything. They have no lovey dovey feelings for others they don't miss their harchmates nothing like that.it can happen anytime from first week put together to five years later that's lt makes things easier on everybody in the long run.

 

[OMary]

We can feed children McDonald's a few times a week with some vitamins/minerals and have "healthy" children too. These ingredients are crap for a weed eating tortoise:
Ground Soybean Hulls, Ground Corn, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Ground Oats, Wheat Middlings,
Cane Molasses, Soybean Oil, Wheat Germ, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal (remaining ingredients are all added vitamins and minerals)

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I have also felt the same way about Mazuri. But sick torts who won't eat anything else will eat softened Mazuri. Eating Mazuri is better than not eating. Your little one is being bullied, whether you see it or not. Some is physical and some is mental. Please just take that advice from the experts on that. I have seen neo nates bullied to death, so we aren't fooling around with you.
I personally would treat the smallest one just like a new baby, hand feed it if it won't eat, wrap it in a warm towel and carry him around with you and talk to him and keep him awake. Soak him in Gerber's strained carrots daily. Put a light over the water to keep it warm. He'll get Vit A thru his cloaca and the soft membrane on his throat. I know that all sounds like crap, however, I have a reputation for saving babies, so that is what I personally would do. Others will tell you different. But holding them and giving them that attention makes a difference.
However, I am not a scientist, or breeder, I just do good with babies. Just my experience.

Oh, I would knock off all the supplements and just feed a good diet. A lot of tortoises won't eat their food if they sense something like calcium powder. They can get what they need from a good and varied diet.

 

[OMary]

I will keep Mazuri in mind if she gets to the point that she won't eat anything else.

I already said I am separating. Hmmm...I am not so sure about all that handling. I only handle them for daily baths right now.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

You asked for advice, so I told you what I would do and that I am usually successful. Why have an animal you can't hold and bond with? Just to look at? Some, like my sister, don't handle her many chelonia, but anybody who met or read about my Sulcata Bob knows that socialization is necessary to make a decent tortoise. I have numerous torts, I mess with them daily. Here's one reason why, I have one who has sinus problems, I can stick a toothpick up his nares to clean it out. He holds his head perfectly still. Then I use a small syringe to suck out the mucus, he still holds still. Makes it easy for a Vet visit. Or for me to treat him.
I was not trying to insult or disrespect you, but after all YOU asked for advice from experts, then you argue about it. I was just trying to help your tortoise.
That's my advice, take it or don't.

 

[OMary]

I am just worried about stressing her more with the handling, that's all.

I was only doing Miner-All every other day for extra calcium + D3. My vet told me to add a multi that also contains A, and to increase the frequency of Miner-All. I have been inconsistent about increasing the frequency of the Miner-All, because I do believe there can be "too much of a good thing". I added the Repashy Grassland Grazer to try to get her to eat more. She really does like it, and I am happy with the ingredients. Even then, though, she nibbles (and I don't put supplements on it). She just isn't a strong eater. I will pay more attention to her eating frequency with and without supplementation. I am nervous about not using calcium at all. Maybe the separation will help her. I need to pickup another UVB when the store opens today before I can separate.

Maggie3fan, I see you are in Corvallis. I am in northern Idaho, and will be visiting Portland in mid-Feb. Do you have room to nurse another if I can't get her up and going? Seriously, do you? But not permanently. I am not looking to re-home.

 

[Pearly]

Hello, I'll throw my few cents in. I have a pair of babies too. What can I say? I knew nothing about torts going into this! One of mine is smaller and would not eat, was sleeping all the time, etc. I like Maggie's approach. It has worked for me. At the time I didn't know about baby carrot soaks. I just kept trying different things with their food. Different food items, different textures. Mine are Redfoot so they are omnivores, I don't really know about your species. It took blending the greens with soaked (yes!) Mazuri in one of those little smoothie "bullet" blenders to get his interest going in food.
I too didn't like the ingredients of the commercial pellets and wouldn't even buy them at the beginning. But the breeder had sent me a little sample of Mazuri along with the babies. In desperation I went ahead and soaked few pellets, and that little baby tort went for that mash like there's no tomorrow. I was also feeding 2-3xday and getting them out of their tank for outdoor excercise. He was always very active outdoors and in the tank would just sit in his hide. Like Maggie I also do "cangaroo" with all the babies no matter what species, warmth and feeling snuggli is what all babies like to feel safe.
Others may debate on the "feeling" part but this is just my personal opinion that FEELS right for me. What can I tell you? I'm all about feelings long story short, this baby tort is thriving, more than tripled his weight, growing, active, eating like a champ, but to this day he will not touch some food items that his "sister" loves to eat. Just one of those picky ones. Mine still live together, but we have figured out great routine for them and getting ready to build big outdoor enclosure for them. here's my picky eater, his name is Tucker. here's his belly
here is example of one of the ways I tried to serve his food and another
and another, sometimes I'd mix everything together and other times put things in separate piles to see what he goes for and Mazuri is a sure hit every time


Kee trying, don't get discouraged and please keep us posted. Include pictures. Visuals tend to work really well. I hope my pics help you at least a little

 

[OMary]

I love the pics Pearly! I will try hand feeding then too. She perks up with baths, which lead me to increasing humidity, which has helped some. She is very "awkward" eating. She will try to bite a piece of greens and miss, try again and miss, out of 5 tries, she succeeds maybe once. She has always been like this, and I thought it was her smaller size at first. Her absolute favorite thing is hibiscus flowers (but my plant only has so many blooms)! The other one takes huge chomps and misses maybe once every 5 times, whereas she has opposite rates of success. Let me see if I can post pics and what I have...okay, I have problems ever since Apple changed the way pics are kept. Let me post separately in a bit. I wish I could post video of her efforts. She just doesn't have the vitality, but she does get 100% for effort.

Looks like one of yours is a cherry head, right? They are really pretty, and their food looks very interesting!

Pearly, I am going to read your post again, and likely ask for more details on this pampering stuff and what I should be doing, and signs for if I am helping or just stressing her out more.