Kelly, Tom, Dean and Neal's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

[mctlong]

RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

These experiments are all so exciting! I can't wait to see how they turn out!

Right now, I'm sticking to the outdoor, open air enclosure for my hatchling with once daily soaks in clear water and twice weekly soaks in calcium water. However, that may change depending on the results of your experiemnts! Please continue posting lots and lots of pictures! The tortoise world needs people like you doing these types of experiments!

Is there a sprinkler for your outdoor enclosure? Shoot us a picture. Also, is it predator-free...i.e. crows love baby tortoises...so if you don't have a wire top...you're playing with fire.

Nope, no sprinkler, just me and my watering can.
Fortunately, its a small enclosure for now (he'll be upgraded as he grows), so my watering can can handle it.

It is absolutely covered, latched, and locked!!! We've got ravens, hawks, owls, raccoons, coyotes, and humans to worry about. I am taking no chances!

I posted some pics on another thread (Doc Pics) I'd prefer not to post pics here and divert from the original, very important topic of tortoise experimentation.

 

[DeanS]

RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

Actually those Tortoise Houses work quite well...You can connect two together, as well! Coop is very cute...keep up the good work!

---

I just told Tom that Neal can join this thread...as long as he provides each of us with a custom humidifier...and Neal...I love those numbers!

 

[Neal]

RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

It's basically the same idea as the Repti-fogger Dean, accept about $30 cheaper. Being a little handy and resourceful I like to do things my own way...Here it is:

Usually when I do these types of things, someone tells me It'll burn the house down or something. So copy at your own risk.

 

[mctlong]

RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

It's basically the same idea as the Repti-fogger Dean, accept about $30 cheaper. Being a little handy and resourceful I like to do things my own way...Here it is:



Usually when I do these types of things, someone tells me It'll burn the house down or something. So copy at your own risk. :)
[/quote]

Nice!

 

[DeanS]

RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

Very nice...I didn't wanna pay for the Repti-Fogger!

 

[tortadise]

RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

Fantastic neal. Im beginning to think its the sole hydration method of keeping a localized hydrated carapace and plastron. I have very slow growing torts too. Well except the sulcatas. They grow fast. But everything else like you grows slow, but pays off when they reacj adulthood years later. I know I am going to try to post monthly photos to show different growth

 

[MooingTricycle]

RE: Kelly, Tom Dean and Neal's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

All of this is so cool, subscribing to watch your results guys! Exciting!!

 

[tortadise]

RE: Kelly, Tom Dean and Neal's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

OK just doing an update on the 3 that I posted few weeks back. The difference of 17 day ago they were left to right 3 days 2 weeks, and 3 weeks, Now they are 20 days, 4 weeks, and 6 weeks.

3 weeker is 2 3/8"
4 weeker is 2 5/8"
6 weeker (tank) is 3 3/16"

Still growing nice and smooth. Weird how where there would be pyramiding there is black outlines.

 

[Neal]

No noticeable difference for me yet as far as growth rates with the humid method compared to the dry method. Something I have noticed though that I like about the humid method is that the tortoises find their way out of their night time and afternoon burrows in the active morning and afternoon hours consistently. By contrast, with the dry method I would have to dig them out of their hides place them in front of their food dishes almost every time. Now, they are waiting for me everyday.

 

[tyguy35]

how often do you leave the fogger on. or ow long are the torts in the fog? do they have a choice of dry or damp

 

[Neal]

how often do you leave the fogger on. or ow long are the torts in the fog? do they have a choice of dry or damp

The humidity is consistently 80% when the humidifier is on throughout the enclosure. When it's off, the dryer end gets about 50%, and the humid hide stays in the 80's. I keep in on from when the lights first turn on until about 12. Then it turns off until about 3 - 4. The idea is that the humidifier is on during the time periods when the tortoises are out and active and not buried in the substrate.

 

[Vegasarah]

Has anyone ever read this website before: http://ojaisulcataproject.org/juveniles.html

This guy raises an interesting question... Because juveniles often defecate in their water, what if soaking them too much would make them not full digest their food and expel it 'early'?

I'm going to continue to soak my hatchling, but I thought it was an interesting point. My tort has a 'cool' water dish and a 'warm' water dish, and he never uses the cool one that I can tell. He always prefers the warm one, and self-soaks once a day on his own at least. And he always defecates in his water, then climbs out.

Just found it interesting.

 

[DeanS]

Has anyone ever read this website before: http://ojaisulcataproject.org/juveniles.html

This guy raises an interesting question... Because juveniles often defecate in their water, what if soaking them too much would make them not full digest their food and expel it 'early'?

I'm going to continue to soak my hatchling, but I thought it was an interesting point. My tort has a 'cool' water dish and a 'warm' water dish, and he never uses the cool one that I can tell. He always prefers the warm one, and self-soaks once a day on his own at least. And he always defecates in his water, then climbs out.

Just found it interesting.

Tom and I visited his facility late last year, and while he has had moderate success with his husbandry methods...several of his ideals are unfounded. One of his practices is that he allows his sulcatas to remain outdoors 24/7...even during the winter, when temps in Ojai can, and do, fall far below 30F. Tortoises likely spend the first year in burrows, where there is abundant moisture and humidity. However, we are raising exotic species out of their element. Therefore, we are required to fabricate an environment as to replicate their biomes. Soaking (and misting) your tortoise, in conjunction with proper diet, temps and humidity help to diminish poor health...i.e. pyramiding and MBD...and it is vital to proper captive husbandry.

 

[Tom]

In addition to what Dean just said:
The man who made that website is named Dave. I now consider him a friend and he and I have talked tortoises quite a lot over the last few years. In a recent conversation we talked about the stuff on his website and why I disagree with some of it. He's got an open mind and even he is willing to listen and learn. He has had some conversations with some people lately that is making him rethink some of his ideas and explore new ones. None of this is set in stone and we are ALL learning as we go.

To answer your specific question about pooping to soon: That myth as well as a few others are simply hogwash.
They don't poop too soon and not digest their food.
It doesn't make them over hydrated or mess up their "water balance".
It doesn't cause any sort of ailment or problems.

If it did do any of these things, how have I raised over 200 leopard and sulcata hatchlings this way, with unprecedented success? My hatchlings all grow faster and smoother than dry dehydrated tortoises that are on the same routine otherwise, with the same amount of the same kind of food. They grow so well, because they are HEALTHY, inside and out. If they weren't digesting their food from the daily soakings, wouldn't they be undersized and growing very slowly due to a lack of nutrition? It's just the opposite.

Here's the thing: for decades people have based care for these guys based on speculation of the above ground temps and conditions in the regions where they are from for PART of the year. The dry season lasts for 8 or 9 months. During this time, they are underground, not out in the open in the hot dry air. My big question is: Why has the other 3 or 4 months of the year been completely ignored. You know, the "wet" season. THIS is when babies hatch and begin their new lives. It rains all the time. There are puddles and bodies of water every where. Marshes. It's very humid and hot, and there is green tortoise food everywhere the eye can see. THESE are the conditions baby sulcatas hatch into. NOT the 8 month dry season. People, including my friend Dave have asked, "Who soaks them every day in the wild?" He called it "unnatural" to soak them every day. My answer is, "Their Mother. Mother Nature." They live in MARSHES. There is water everywhere!!! I'm not picking on Dave. He's a great guy and I've had that same exchange with many keepers.

Anyhow, hope this sheds some light on things, and illustrates why I cringe when a new tortoise owner says, "I've been researching their care for months...". WHERE did you do your research, and what website have you been reading? It's a little scary out there, and even if I could get everyone to read what we all have here on TFO, some percentage are just not going to believe it and do the wrong things anyway. That's why I love it when people post pics of their gorgeous perfect tortoises, so everyone can see for themselves first hand what the results of hydration can be.

 

[Vegasarah]

Oh, I totally agree with the results you guys are getting and am going to strive to do the same with my hatchling. I'm currently building my own closed chamber table and am going to continue to soak him, regardless. I just found that to be an interesting theory all in all. : D

 

[Neal]

Well, so far the results I am seeing with the high humid method are a lot more favorable. There is without a doubt a significantly higher rate of grow with my high humid method versus my dry method. The tortoises shells are a lot more vivid and clean looking, and the tortoises are by far more active than the ones I have kept without humidity. It's still too early to tell how they will compare as far as shell smoothness, but I like what I am seeing so far.

These two I kept back, and they are mighty fine lookin' if I say so myself.

There are other factors I would consider before reaching any conclusions. These two were incubated in the ground, whereas the other ones I am comparing these to were incubated artificially. From the moments after hatching out, I could already see a difference in activity level between them so I think that also has an effect on the results I am seeing as far as level of activity. I guess the next test would be to put tortoises that were artificially incubated in the high humid set up.

 

[wellington]

They are very fine looking.

 

[tortadise]

Well heres a almost 3 month old "her" name is tankette (hatch date;6-3-12) and "her" little brother, which is 2 days old. So far still growing smoothly,still very good results in the open top method.

Tankette is 3 7/8" long at 11 weeks 3 days old
her brother is 2 3/16" long at 2 days old

 

[Tom]

Update: These are my six in the same tub as the first pics.

The smaller, younger three are weighing in at 85, 86 and 95 grams at 7 weeks old.

The larger older group are 124, 125, and 145 grams at 11 weeks old.

These guys all live together, but I find it interesting that each trio has a runaway grower. Same thing happens every time I do a trio. It will be interesting to watch how this progresses as they age.

Nothing new to report really. Everything is going as it should. They eat everything I put in front of them. They are active and inquisitive. They are noticeably smoother than previous babies from open topped enclosures. The growth lines are also coming in much more uniform, concentric and even. I can't see how they could be any smoother.

 

[Len B]

I have been following this thread with great interest, I tried the humid method,3 sulcatas and 1 leopard tortoise and got pyramiding in all 4, so last year I decided to go back to 1996 (with a few tweaks) and try and reproduce some of the ways I raised Walker, he has some pyramiding not but not near as bad as I was getting with the wet method recently.These 4 were not recent newborn hatchlings(from 4 weeks to a couple months) so some slight pyramiding was noticeable when I got them, but was unable to stop it using the wet method. On may 31, I received a newborn hatchling and using my old method it has grown smooth and is 3 5/16 inches and 151 grams at 14 weeks old.I believe one of the most important things was getting one right out of the egg. Basically my old method is as much outside time as possible in growing grass that is at least as tall as the tortoise, grass holds moisture naturally so it works the same as a humid hide. When he comes in for the night he is put in a small tank given 2 pieces of moistened mazuri in a milk bottle top and a variety of weeds and leaves picked just before he is brought in.There is no overhead heat just heat from below his clay flowerpot hide that absorbs moisture from the soil and I spray it once after he goes to sleep for the night.His outside enclosure has a large glazed saucer for him to soak in and different weeds and grass to graze on. I soak him twice a week before putting him in the tank.I took some pics today, if you want I will post some.