Kelly, Tom, Dean and Neal's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

[tortadise]

It seems both tom and I are currently doing a reverse experiment method in hatchling sulcatas. This year I swapped my method of keeping the hatchlings in brooder box. Which is a completely enclosed enclosure with 70+% humidity minimum, and constant soaks. Up to 4+ times a day and keeping the babies well hydrated and high humidity. I chose to try and keep raising a baby sulcata easier for a consumer, in regards to the very common enclosure of a tortoise table for a huge variety of tortoise. It seems this method of keeping these test babies in a tortoise table enclosure instead of a brooder box style enclosure. It seems to be working just fine, without all the hassel.

I kept the substrate as usual coco coir, and dampen it daily while the babies are getting their first soak in the morning.

I chose to soak them a minimum of 2-3 times a day and spray the enclosure 2-3 times a day.

The growth seems to be relatively close if not almost no comparitive differences with the brooder box method. During the past years with dry husbandry methods the growth seemed to go upwards and more dome like. Whereas the wet methods tend to grow the babies like an adult would look. Flatter more round and very smooth.

Well Lets here everyones views and methods on the Open top versus Closed brooder box or closed enclosure methods. Has anyone had similiar positive results with keeping hatchlings growing smooth without the very high humidity?

 

[Tom]

RE: Kelly and Toms Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

In years past I have always used open topped enclosures. Since starting the "wet" routine a few years ago, I have always struggled to maintain humidity. Its very dry where I live. I have sprayed the enclosures, added water to the substrates, humidified both the enclosures and the whole room, and tried to cover as much of the top as possible. All of this effort did get me some good results, but still not perfect. This year, I modified an old enclosure in my garage into a large closed chamber. It is 4x8x2' with a divider in the middle. I have my Sudan babies on one side, and 6 recently hatched sulcata babies from my adults on the other. These 6 holdbacks will be the subject of this thread. My routine will be identical to what it was two years ago with the "End of Pyramiding" tortoises, with the exception of a closed chamber, instead of an open topped one. They will still get daily soaks, a humid hide box, shell spraying at least 3-4 times a day, an hour or two of sunshine a day, gradually increasing the outdoor sunning time as they gain size, and Mazuri twice a week with a wide variety of other foods on the non-Mazuri days. They still have an 80 degree ambient that climbs during the day, and they still have a 100 degree basking spot, although I'm using a lower wattage bulb since its inside a closed chamber, but still a flood bulb.

Here are the babies: These three are out of Bertha and are about two weeks old. Weights are 46, 47, and 51.

These three are out of Delores and are about six weeks old now. They are 73, 80, and 81 grams.

Here is where they spend a couple hours a day. As they age and grow, I will leave them outside more and more. By the time they are 8-12 months old I usually have them outside all day, weather permitting.

This is where they spend 30-45 minutes a day.

And this is where they spend around 21-22 hours a day... and night.

Right now they are even smoother than my previous babies. Growth is excellent, and so far their weights are even closer together than previous years in the open topped enclosures. I think that in my other open topped enclosures their behavior allowed them to short circuit my attempts to keep them humid and in "African Rainy Season Burrow" conditions. Some of them would sleep inside the humid hide boxes, while others would sleep and spend their time out in the open. This caused some to pyramid more and grow slower. The ones that spent more time in the humid hide grew faster and were smoother. They were still good, but not perfect. Now I have taken their choice out of the matter, as would happen in nature, and they are always in the humidity that I am trying to simulate. Another interesting thing that I have noted in my closed chamber is that they all use the humid hides throughout the day, and they all sleep in there at night. By 6:30 or 7:00pm it is a ghost town in there. Can't even see a tortoise. In my open topped enclosures, some of them always chose to sleep out in the open.

More to follow...

 

[tortadise]

RE: Kelly and Toms Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

I do have to say. I do notice a difference in the methods. I think the enclosed top enclosure does pose more of a better result. However what my ultimate goal is to get through the roughest stages without major pyramiding. Mine arent as smooth as the brooder box method but my wee ones are showing a much better result than the dry method of typical daily soaks and spraying. I am also putting the oil and vita shell method to the test with a few different hatchlings with a lower amount of soaks and spraying. Its still hard to see the difference because My guys are still young the youngest being a few days old and still coming out in the plentifuls. The oldest Tank is around 4 weeks old, hes showing wonderful signs of smooth growth with the open top methods.

I just love this sort of experiment. Tom are you going to keep onto some for a while? This year I would love to compare the growth comparisons and relative smoothness on maybe a 1 month to 1 year basis. Id love to compare the different methods with each one of our hatchlings being almost same age and under 2 totally different methods. Also get dean in on it, I know hes doing the outside method, would love to know how all 3 methods show in the latter result.

 

[Tom]

RE: Kelly and Toms Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

I intend to carry on for at least a few months. I'll shoot for a year.

 

[tortadise]

RE: Kelly and Toms Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

Typically I dont keep any back for that long. (lots of other torts here at the facility). But ive expanded and going to keep at least 8 back to raise up to adults so it will be a work in progress but I always wondered when I sent the little ones off how they turned out as adults. This year Im gonna keep some though. Maybe prove the theory a little better. And next year try half brooder and half open top method and side by side compare the results. I will get some photos of my guys shortly, Ive gotta go to BFE to get more nesting mulch for my burmese mountains.

 

[DeanS]

RE: Kelly and Toms Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

Well Lets here everyones views and methods on the Open top versus Closed brooder box or closed enclosure methods. Has anyone had similiar positive results with keeping hatchlings growing smooth without the very high humidity?

Hah! I just got invited to this thread by Tom...and I just got through telling him to ask you first...as I didn't wanna trample on anyone's thread! I don't believe at all in closed top habitats of any kind...and yes, the brooder box is a habitat too!

Now...I've posted this before in my own thread...but rather than link it, I'll just reiterate here...

First thing in the morning (around 7 AM) I put them in a Rubbermaid container half full of orchard grass hay...and feed them a 50/50 mixture of moistened Mazuri/Marion...literally to the consistency of oatmeal...moist but not wet! They polish it off over the course of an hour! Then they feed on the hay a little...I've NEVER seen this from babies....but I've seen it now! After they've had their fill, they burrow into the hay...so cute! And, they're under a MVB for light and heat...it gets to be about 100!

Then about 9 AM, I put them in the kiddie pool with about a half an inch of water...in direct sunlight...and leave them for an hour.

From 10AM to 4 PM, I put them in two ZooMed Tortoise playpens (3 per playpen) on the back lawn. They can graze (and they do), or they can retreat to the built-in den...which they do plenty! Every hour, I turn the playpens so they can't stay in the dens ALL day!

From 4PM to 5PM, they go back in the pool...with fresh water...still in direct sunlight!

At 5, they go back into the Rubbermaid with hay...but I also add a variety of chop to the hay...grass, dandelions, medic, clover and mulberry leaves! I leave them to their own devices until 7PM...and yes! It turns out the same as in the AM...eat, scurry, burrow! All under a MVB!

At 7PM, I transfer them to another Rubbermaid container...with a Coconut bark/Coco coir mixture...and they settle in immediately! All under a CHE with humidity ranging from 50 to 80% and temps topping off at 80!

There is no fluctuation in pattern...this is what I do EVERYDAY!

Pictures taken today! Weights range from 54g to 89g.

 

[Tom]

RE: Kelly and Toms Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

Thanks for coming on board Dean. Now everyone can watch three different ways of keeping them and see the results all in one place. I think Kelly is planning on using more than one method too, which would add to the learning.

Also, so everyone is up to speed, I also have a bunch of Sudan babies that are out of the same batch as Dean's. They are on the other side of my same divided enclosure and getting the exact same routine as the six babies out of my adults. So we will be able to compare those two groups too. As of today, my group that is related to Dean's range from 60-125 grams.

 

[tortadise]

RE: Kelly and Toms Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

ok heres some photos of my little guys.

First off on a somewhat side note. Check out the heads on some of them, they are orangeish red, too cool. Im wondering if mine carry a hypo gene of somesort. only about 2-3 per clutch have this right out of the egg. Anyways. I do note keeping in an open top enclosure to have at least 6" of good coco coir or eco earth substrate as the babies will burrow in it, and my theory of keeping it moist and churned up after it is sprayed will allow the hartchlings to absorb moisture through themselves being burrowed in the somewhat damp substrate. Im seeing signs of this in both batches of same smooth growth. Both the ones being sprayed numerous times a day and as well as the ones not being sprayed numerous times a day.

A very interesting notation in relation to the different ways a hatchling can absorb and utilize moisture. Thus bringing this test of open top enclosures to a plausable housing system that can still allow smooth growth without going the extremes of high humidity and constant spraying down.

Well heres some photos of the wee ones

 

[tortadise]

RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

Are those the sudanese dean? Im liking the orange in between the scutes.

 

[DeanS]

RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

Yeah...they're a little more than two months right now...I saw some pix of Brad's at 4 or 5 inches...and there really is a lot of color...compared to most sulcatas.

 

[Laura]

RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

do you have picture comparisons to when you did it the Old way?

 

[tortadise]

RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

I believe I do. Im gonna have to try and fine the photos first.

 

[Tom]

RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

do you have picture comparisons to when you did it the Old way?

I have previously posted many photos of Daisy, my juvenile, and my adults too. A search for Scooter, Bert and Delores should turn something up for you.

 

[DeanS]

RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

OK! As I've already mentioned... I house mine at night in a mixture of coco coir and coconut bark. I boil it every week...and it stays moist throughout the week. A cool thing that's happened over the past few days...every night they burrow into their substrate! I keep it about eight inches thick...and they use the top two inches...I'll snap a couple of pictures tomorrow AM and post 'em. I don't remember off the top of my head if I mentioned this before...but I am not using a proper humid hide...as the entire container is one big humid hide...and remember...this is their nighttime environment!

 

[tortadise]

RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

Dean. Im doing almost the same method, but not outside. I have some stones in the corners for them to hide under but no moss or anything keep higher humidity. Just 6" of coco coir always kept moist not wet but moist. They will as you have noticed with yours burrow in the first few inches. This I think along with soaking and spraying, keeps a nice moisture level for them to be hydrated in what I would think is a mini micro climate, which I think is relatively close to wild climate as well. Being in the bottom stock systems of grasslands where the soil is still humid just inches above the ground from night dew or just weeping grass or plants. I think the open top in my findings are relatively exact to the brooder box, and maybe we might not need to keep them as wet and humid as we thought. Time will tell as they get older. But so far my oldest wee ones(about 4 weeks now) are solid smooth and nice and round.

 

[Neal]

RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

If it's OK, I would like to provide a bit of detail about what I am doing currently.

Many on here know that I have, and do raise smooth tortoises without any elevated humidity and on dry substrate in open outdoor enclosures. Here are some examples:

The pardalis have never seen elevated humidity at all, not even a humid hide (except for when it rains). Unfortunately I received them after they were a few months old, so they're not exactly perfect, but as you can see they are very close to it.

My "dry" method is really simple and basic, and has produced some good results over the past few years with several species. They live outdoors with plenty of natural sunlight, they are provided a water dish and are soaked once or sometimes twice a day. When I soak them I splash their shells with water. The substrate in their outdoor enclosures is just plain dirt, kept dry except when I water the plants every other day or so. Compared to other keepers on the forum, my tortoises grow very slow. I still kind of have my find in the slow growth camp, but I don't think that accelerated growth is necessarily a bad thing. But, of the adults I have, some of the biggest, smoothest, and most solid tortoises I have, have been slow growers so that is why I prefer a "slower" method which of course is just a relative term.

So, I've posted here because I am trying out the high humid method again. I have tried it before, but wasn't able to keep up with it. Now that things are a bit more stable for me, I'll give it another go. Why change things when what I am doing is working? I would like to try the high humid, fast growth method to see which produces better results in terms of cosmetics, health, and consistency. My dry method works well, but isn't really consistent. I would have one tortoise that grew perfectly smooth, and one of its clutch mates would be slightly bumpy, although not as bad as you would see in a tortoise that was kept dehydrated.

The details of my high humid method are similar to everyone else. Basically the tortoises are in an enclosed area and exposed to high levels of humidity around the clock.

Customized humidifier.

The residents.

My main concern with the high humid method is that it really isn't practical to keep them in a high humid set-up their whole lives. So at the point when they are big enough to start living outdoors, how will they handle the change? I intend to do a slow transition between indoors and outdoors and acclimating them to a new environment, but I don't know how that will effect them cosmetically or health-wise.

 

[mctlong]

RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

These experiments are all so exciting! I can't wait to see how they turn out!

Right now, I'm sticking to the outdoor, open air enclosure for my hatchling with once daily soaks in clear water and twice weekly soaks in calcium water. However, that may change depending on the results of your experiemnts! Please continue posting lots and lots of pictures! The tortoise world needs people like you doing these types of experiments!

 

[Tom]

RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

OMG! You CAN'T post THAT here Neal!!!!

JK

Love this Neal. I was going to send you a PM last night about this very subject. I've noticed small comments that indicated your style of keeping has been changing and evolving over the years. I was going to have a conversation with about the hows and whys and the results. I find the slower growth thing interesting too. I was surprised by how fast they grew when I started my "End Of Pyramiding" with all the humidity and hydration. I didn't feed them any differently than I ever have. These current babies in the closed chamber are growing even faster than those other ones on a similar diet. In fact, I am feeding more grass now, in place of more leafy greens than in the past. I expected this low nutrition food to cause them to grow a little slower, but it isn't. It seems that humidity makes them grow faster, at least in all of my enclosures. Don't know how to explain that one, but its consistent.

I am at that same transitional point with my leopards now too. I just put them outside for longer and longer until by the end of their first or second year they are outside all day every day, weather permitting. Indoors, I have been letting them get gradually dryer too.

You basically just answered all my questions. Thanks man!

Now you realize you have to keep posting updates here to keep us all updated on their progress for the next few months at least, right?

 

[DeanS]

RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

These experiments are all so exciting! I can't wait to see how they turn out!

Right now, I'm sticking to the outdoor, open air enclosure for my hatchling with once daily soaks in clear water and twice weekly soaks in calcium water. However, that may change depending on the results of your experiemnts! Please continue posting lots and lots of pictures! The tortoise world needs people like you doing these types of experiments!

Is there a sprinkler for your outdoor enclosure? Shoot us a picture. Also, is it predator-free...i.e. crows love baby tortoises...so if you don't have a wire top...you're playing with fire.

 

[Neal]

RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

Now you realize you have to keep posting updates here to keep us all updated on their progress for the next few months at least, right?

As much as I can. My participation on the forum is a bit random...but I will make a good effort on this topic.