Is this new environment good for my tortoise?

[paemaker]

Hello guys it's me again. I just purchased a new substrate from Exo Terra, The plantation soil. It's made of coconut fiber which is not recommended in Mr.Tom's care sheet (the care sheet suggests coconut coir). It looks quite okay except I don't know if it can completely be replaceable or not. Anyway, I realized my baby sulcata eats some fiber from the substrate and I've seen a post on FB saying it was not harmful if it wasn't in a big amount. I still think my tortoise will continue eating with or without me noticing, so I think of 2 methods: The first method is to filter every single fiber in the soil as much as possible. The other method is I'll use pine bark to place them on top of the soil (soil without being filtered).

I chose the second method and so far, my tortoise has lived in his new environment for almost 2 days now. The humidity is around 70-80% as I have a lid closed. The temp is 32-36 degrees Celsius during the day and during the night, it'll drop to 28-31 degrees, and humidity also drops down to 60%. For lighting, I've had a 100w UVA bulb (intense basking spot), a 25w UVB bulb, and a 100w infrared bulb (for rainy or cold nights), all from Exo Terra.

I attached a picture of the enclosure, so you can see how I set up the enclosure. You'll see I leave a small space for him so maybe he will dig down. It seems to be a small enclosure but I'm planning to buy a bigger one next month. Please let me know what's good and what's not. I hope I'm heading in the right way.
Thank you in advance.

 

[Tom]

Hello guys it's me again. I just purchased a new substrate from Exo Terra, The plantation soil. It's made of coconut fiber which is not recommended in Mr.Tom's care sheet (the care sheet suggests coconut coir). It looks quite okay except I don't know if it can completely be replaceable or not. Anyway, I realized my baby sulcata eats some fiber from the substrate and I've seen a post on FB saying it was not harmful if it wasn't in a big amount. I still think my tortoise will continue eating with or without me noticing, so I think of 2 methods: The first method is to filter every single fiber in the soil as much as possible. The other method is I'll use pine bark to place them on top of the soil (soil without being filtered).

I chose the second method and so far, my tortoise has lived in his new environment for almost 2 days now. The humidity is around 70-80% as I have a lid closed. The temp is 32-36 degrees Celsius during the day and during the night, it'll drop to 28-31 degrees, and humidity also drops down to 60%. For lighting, I've had a 100w UVA bulb (intense basking spot), a 25w UVB bulb, and a 100w infrared bulb (for rainy or cold nights), all from Exo Terra.

I attached a picture of the enclosure, so you can see how I set up the enclosure. You'll see I leave a small space for him so maybe he will dig down. It seems to be a small enclosure but I'm planning to buy a bigger one next month. Please let me know what's good and what's not. I hope I'm heading in the right way.
Thank you in advance.

I don't have experience with the specific Exo Terra product you are using, but coco fibers can and will cause impaction if eaten. Coco coir doesn't have the fibers.

You will get nothin but bad info from FB. Following that advice will lead you to problems.

Pine bark should not be used. Only fir bark, which is technically a type of pine, so this can be confusing especially when jumping from country to country with different languages. Just use the orchid bark by itself. It is safest and best for baby sulcata.

Humidity should be over 80% all the time. Usually, humidity rises when the lights kick off and the temperature cools at night, so it is odd that yours drops.

Spot bulb should not be used over tortoises. It causeless pyramiding. Also, 100 watts is generating a ton of heat, which should not be necessary in your warm climate. I only use 25-45 watt bulbs in summer time here. I don't even use 100 watts in winter when its cold here.

What type of UV bulb is it? Be sure it is not a cfl type coil bulb. Those can burn their eyes. You should be using a long tube type HO for indoor UV, but do you even need UV in your warm climate? Can you get the tortoise outside a couple of times a week in a safe enclosure?

Infrared and other colored bulbs should ever be used over tortoises. Use a CHE set on a thermostat to maintain ambient temperatures day and night.

The enclosure needs to be a closed chamber and it needs to be 10 times that size. At least 61 x 122 cm for a hatchling. You also need a humid hide. That little hide will not hold in enough humidity.

I hope these tips will help. Questions are welcome.

 

[paemaker]

I don't have experience with the specific Exo Terra product you are using, but coco fibers can and will cause impaction if eaten. Coco coir doesn't have the fibers.

You will get nothin but bad info from FB. Following that advice will lead you to problems.

Pine bark should not be used. Only fir bark, which is technically a type of pine, so this can be confusing especially when jumping from country to country with different languages. Just use the orchid bark by itself. It is safest and best for baby sulcata.

Humidity should be over 80% all the time. Usually, humidity rises when the lights kick off and the temperature cools at night, so it is odd that yours drops.

Spot bulb should not be used over tortoises. It causeless pyramiding. Also, 100 watts is generating a ton of heat, which should not be necessary in your warm climate. I only use 25-45 watt bulbs in summer time here. I don't even use 100 watts in winter when its cold here.

What type of UV bulb is it? Be sure it is not a cfl type coil bulb. Those can burn their eyes. You should be using a long tube type HO for indoor UV, but do you even need UV in your warm climate? Can you get the tortoise outside a couple of times a week in a safe enclosure?

Infrared and other colored bulbs should ever be used over tortoises. Use a CHE set on a thermostat to maintain ambient temperatures day and night.

The enclosure needs to be a closed chamber and it needs to be 10 times that size. At least 61 x 122 cm for a hatchling. You also need a humid hide. That little hide will not hold in enough humidity.

I hope these tips will help. Questions are welcome.

- Coconut fiber
I finally understand what the actual coconut coir is. In Thailand, it's mostly called coconut peat.

- Pine bark
Though, the barks (pine, fir, orchid) look the same in appearance on Google, I hope you can tell me why the orchid bark is better than the other two or what are the differences between 3 of them. Now my bark package has a big label says it's pine bark, but I just noticed that it also has a small label says "100% natural fir bark" below. Take a look at the picture I attahed.

- Humidity
I have no idea why the humidity drops during the night, even I usually spray some water before I shut the light off. Probably I have a lid open a little and the humidity escape. Anyway how often should I spray water in a day in order to keep the humidity high?

- Light bulbs
I think it helps my tortoise since he's been in an indoor enclosure. I live in an apartment where the sun doesn't shine that much, so having these bulbs can compensate for the less sunshine.
I agree with you, a 100w UVA bulb gives a high heat, but perhaps I'll get the lower watts. Regarding the UVB bulb, I didn't know it could cause a damage to tortoise's eyes and of course, the bulb is they type you mentioned. I plan to get another one, the one you suggest is a great. The last bulb is what I understand that tortoises barely see it because it's infrared. Your suggestion for CHE and thermostat is quite interesting, I'll need to do more research on that.

- Enclosure
The more substrate I put in, the smaller enclosure it becomes, so I'm looking for a bigger one this time. Take a look at the image I attached. Even it's not the precisest size you suggested, it's the closest I can afford at the right price and at the right place. I believe this one is not a closed chamber, but it's an opened top and it has grill. I read your care sheet and I'm wondering what if my room temp is between 28-31 degress Celsius and humidity is way lower than 70%, is it possible to use an opened top with having to spary water more often and turning on UVA bulb or heating bulb the whole day instead as long as I can maintain the same temp and humidity as closed chamber?

Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. I'm very curious at the moment and I hope what I wrote and questions won't bother or make you upset.
🙏☺️

 

[Tom]

- Coconut fiber
I finally understand what the actual coconut coir is. In Thailand, it's mostly called coconut peat.

- Pine bark
Though, the barks (pine, fir, orchid) look the same in appearance on Google, I hope you can tell me why the orchid bark is better than the other two or what are the differences between 3 of them. Now my bark package has a big label says it's pine bark, but I just noticed that it also has a small label says "100% natural fir bark" below. Take a look at the picture I attahed.

- Humidity
I have no idea why the humidity drops during the night, even I usually spray some water before I shut the light off. Probably I have a lid open a little and the humidity escape. Anyway how often should I spray water in a day in order to keep the humidity high?

- Light bulbs
I think it helps my tortoise since he's been in an indoor enclosure. I live in an apartment where the sun doesn't shine that much, so having these bulbs can compensate for the less sunshine.
I agree with you, a 100w UVA bulb gives a high heat, but perhaps I'll get the lower watts. Regarding the UVB bulb, I didn't know it could cause a damage to tortoise's eyes and of course, the bulb is they type you mentioned. I plan to get another one, the one you suggest is a great. The last bulb is what I understand that tortoises barely see it because it's infrared. Your suggestion for CHE and thermostat is quite interesting, I'll need to do more research on that.

- Enclosure
The more substrate I put in, the smaller enclosure it becomes, so I'm looking for a bigger one this time. Take a look at the image I attached. Even it's not the precisest size you suggested, it's the closest I can afford at the right price and at the right place. I believe this one is not a closed chamber, but it's an opened top and it has grill. I read your care sheet and I'm wondering what if my room temp is between 28-31 degress Celsius and humidity is way lower than 70%, is it possible to use an opened top with having to spary water more often and turning on UVA bulb or heating bulb the whole day instead as long as I can maintain the same temp and humidity as closed chamber?

Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. I'm very curious at the moment and I hope what I wrote and questions won't bother or make you upset.
🙏☺️

- Some people here call it coco peat too. Its very confusing. Peat is something totally different. This terminology really needs to be sorted out.

- Fir bar = orchid bark. Fir is technically a type of pine, but you would not want to use bark from a "normal" type of pine tree.

-Spraying should not be necessary in the correct type of enclosure. Your top should not be open at night. In a proper closed chamber the ceiling is solid and the doors open in front. Opening the top only lets out your heat and humidity.

- Here is a breakdown of the four heating and lighting essentials:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night. Some people in colder climates or with larger enclosures will need multiple CHEs or RHPs to spread out enough heat.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

-Open topped enclosure don't work. Wooden enclosures rot with all the moisture.

 

[paemaker]

- Some people here call it coco peat too. Its very confusing. Peat is something totally different. This terminology really needs to be sorted out.

- Fir bar = orchid bark. Fir is technically a type of pine, but you would not want to use bark from a "normal" type of pine tree.

-Spraying should not be necessary in the correct type of enclosure. Your top should not be open at night. In a proper closed chamber the ceiling is solid and the doors open in front. Opening the top only lets out your heat and humidity.

- Here is a breakdown of the four heating and lighting essentials:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night. Some people in colder climates or with larger enclosures will need multiple CHEs or RHPs to spread out enough heat.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

-Open topped enclosure don't work. Wooden enclosures rot with all the moisture.

I understand almost every answer you gave me, still, there are some I wanna understand further.
You wrote fir bark is equal to orchid bark, so that's really the fir bark? I always thought fir bark and orchid were different. Also, the pictures I attached, what do you think of them? is it really fir bark or pine bark?

About the lighting and heating, are they similar to each other between the basking bulb and the ambient light? I think the one I have, the UVA basking spot does the same thing. Correct me if I'm wrong. The rest of them, I totally understand it.

Regarding the enclosure, is it possible to have a few small open windows just for the bulbs to sit on top of it? Or do you mean close is close, like completely close and all the bulbs are inside it? I'm asking this because if it has to be completely closed, it's gonna cost a lot of money and it's gonna be very big and tall.

 

[Tom]

I understand almost every answer you gave me, still, there are some I wanna understand further.

That is why we are all here my friend from Bangkok! Tortoise questions and conversation are welcome.

You wrote fir bark is equal to orchid bark, so that's really the fir bark? I always thought fir bark and orchid were different. Also, the pictures I attached, what do you think of them? is it really fir bark or pine bark?

Fir bark, orchid bark, and "Repti-Bark" are all the exact same product.

The picture you posted sure looks like fir bark to me, but I cannot be 100% sure. Also, you need fine grade orchid bark. That stuff looks pretty coarse, but if that is all you can find, it will work.

About the lighting and heating, are they similar to each other between the basking bulb and the ambient light? I think the one I have, the UVA basking spot does the same thing. Correct me if I'm wrong. The rest of them, I totally understand it.

The basking lamp should only be warming up a relatively small area directly under the bulb. Ambient light, by contrast, is meant to light up the entire enclosure and make it look like a bright sunny day in there. Basking bulbs are relatively dim and they are not of an optimal color temperature for making it look like "day light" in your enclosure. Basking bulbs tend to run in the 2000-2500K color range. You want bulbs in the 5000-6500K color range for ambient lighting. The two different types of bulbs, along with some mid day UVB, all work together to make a very nice, more "natural" lighting strategy for a little baby tortoise that is living indoors.

If you want to get super cool and fancy, like me, you can set these bulbs on different timers and create a sunrise and sunset effect. My basking bulb kicks on first at around 6:30am. The dim yellowish light simulates a sunrise as the sunrise is happening outside. 10-15 minutes later, the left hand bank of LEDs kicks on, gradually increasing the intensity of light. 15 minutes after that, the right hand bank of LEDs kicks on bringing the enclosure to full "day light" intensity. Then around 11am, my Arcadia 12% HO tube kicks on bringing some strong UVB into the enclosure. The HO tube then shuts off at 2 or 3 in the afternoon, and the other lights shut off one bank at a time in the evening, giving the tortoises a gradual dimming and sunsetting effect. Is this necessary to grow healthy babies? No. No it isn't. Is it super cool and fun for me? HECK YES IT IS!!!

Be sure you are using a flood lamp for basking, and NOT an "intense basking spot lamp". Spot bulbs concentrate too much IR-A into too small of an area and will greatly contribute to pyramiding.

Regarding the enclosure, is it possible to have a few small open windows just for the bulbs to sit on top of it? Or do you mean close is close, like completely close and all the bulbs are inside it? I'm asking this because if it has to be completely closed, it's gonna cost a lot of money and it's gonna be very big and tall.

Having openings on top creates a chimney effect that draws all your heat and humidity up and out. It simply doesn't work. This is like trying to heat a house in a colder climate in winter with no roof on it. Have you been to Europe in winter? Or the Northern USA, or Canada? Imagine how difficult it would be to heat a house there with giant holes cut in the roof. It wouldn't work.

In a closed chamber, you use lower wattage bulbs to keep the temperatures lower and not over heat every thing. 24 inches tall is adequate. 30 inches tall is ideal. I make it work with 18 inch tall enclosures in my reptile room so I can stack them three high. Your enclosure does need to be very large, but it doesn't need to be very tall.

Here are some of mine:

New Stack of Animal Plastics CLosed Chambers

AKA: Tom's baby emporium. @GStars asked for a pic on my new baby raising enclosures the other day. I only had a partial, but I took a fuller one today. Each cage is 96x30 and divided in the middle into two 48x30 cages for starting babies. The colored tape on each upper right corner shows the...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Rombengy]

The basking lamp should only be warming up a relatively small area directly under the bulb. Ambient light, by contrast, is meant to light up the entire enclosure and make it look like a bright sunny day in there. Basking bulbs are relatively dim and they are not of an optimal color temperature for making it look like "day light" in your enclosure. Basking bulbs tend to run in the 2000-2500K color range. You want bulbs in the 5000-6500K color range for ambient lighting. The two different types of bulbs, along with some mid day UVB, all work together to make a very nice, more "natural" lighting strategy for a little baby tortoise that is living indoors.

Hi Tom, I want to ask since my cage will only have 3 fitting for lamps, 1 for UVB tube, 1 for basking lamp, and 1 for the daylight. I couldnt find any incandescent floods in my country online marketplace (will try to go to lighting store later), best i can find online is daylight basking bulb which i read spreading heat to more area compared to the spot one. Is the daylight basking bulb useable? or do i still need to find the incandescent flood bulb? also can i ask what ceramic heating element do you use? i found a Zoomed Nano Ceramic Heat Emitter in form of lamps is that the same and useable?

 

[Tom]

Hi Tom, I want to ask since my cage will only have 3 fitting for lamps, 1 for UVB tube, 1 for basking lamp, and 1 for the daylight. I couldnt find any incandescent floods in my country online marketplace (will try to go to lighting store later), best i can find online is daylight basking bulb which i read spreading heat to more area compared to the spot one. Is the daylight basking bulb useable? or do i still need to find the incandescent flood bulb? also can i ask what ceramic heating element do you use? i found a Zoomed Nano Ceramic Heat Emitter in form of lamps is that the same and useable?

The daylight basking bulb sounds like it probably is an incandescent flood bulb.

If you have trouble finding them, Arcadia makes flood bulbs and sells them in Europe. Maybe you could find them in your country too?

I've used the ZooMed ceramic heating elements for many years. I've never had one fail. One was even submerged in a flood. It still works to this day 10 years later.

 

[Rombengy]

The daylight basking bulb sounds like it probably is an incandescent flood bulb.

If you have trouble finding them, Arcadia makes flood bulbs and sells them in Europe. Maybe you could find them in your country too?

I've used the ZooMed ceramic heating elements for many years. I've never had one fail. One was even submerged in a flood. It still works to this day 10 years later.

I live and south east asian country and i couldnt find the Arcadia here, thank you for your answer appreciate it!

 

[paemaker]

The picture you posted sure looks like fir bark to me, but I cannot be 100% sure. Also, you need fine grade orchid bark. That stuff looks pretty coarse, but if that is all you can find, it will work.

If it's fir bark, that's great! I can start to use it right away, but I plan to go take a loot at the shop to find what the actual orchid bark really is. Thank you for inspecting it for me though.

The basking lamp should only be warming up a relatively small area directly under the bulb. Ambient light, by contrast, is meant to light up the entire enclosure and make it look like a bright sunny day in there. Basking bulbs are relatively dim and they are not of an optimal color temperature for making it look like "day light" in your enclosure. Basking bulbs tend to run in the 2000-2500K color range. You want bulbs in the 5000-6500K color range for ambient lighting. The two different types of bulbs, along with some mid day UVB, all work together to make a very nice, more "natural" lighting strategy for a little baby tortoise that is living indoors.

Is it necessary to have an ambient light? What if I had a long tube uvb, would that be brighter enough to let a tortoise know this is the day time?
I'm asking you this because my money is gonna get low. I just asked for the price of a new enclosure and it costs around 78 usd. Need more money for my baby! 😂

Is this necessary to grow healthy babies? No. No it isn't. Is it super cool and fun for me? HECK YES IT IS!!!

I love this messages so much. It's really coo! 🤘

Be sure you are using a flood lamp for basking, and NOT an "intense basking spot lamp". Spot bulbs concentrate too much IR-A into too small of an area and will greatly contribute to pyramiding.

Would you be so kind to provide an image of the flood lamp for basking, so I can use as a great reference.

Having openings on top creates a chimney effect that draws all your heat and humidity up and out. It simply doesn't work. This is like trying to heat a house in a colder climate in winter with no roof on it. Have you been to Europe in winter? Or the Northern USA, or Canada? Imagine how difficult it would be to heat a house there with giant holes cut in the roof. It wouldn't work.

I don't have to go to USA or Canada to test it. When it's winter time in Thailand, although we have roof, it's still very cold inside the house. Now I can imagine why it needs to like that.

 

[Tom]

Is it necessary to have an ambient light? What if I had a long tube uvb, would that be brighter enough to let a tortoise know this is the day time?

Yes. The UV tube should not be on all day long. The UV tube should only be on for a few hours mid day. Also UV tubes are not all that bright. Your basking bulb is also not all that bright. Think of how bright it is outside during the day in the sunshine. THAT is what we are trying to simulate indoors. Ambient light and the basking lamp needs to be on for 12-13 hours a day. The UV tube only needs to be on 2-3 hours mid day.

Your ambient light does not need to be expensive. One or two round screw in type bulbs in fixtures will do it. Or the under-cabinet mount types only cost $20-30 US dollars.

For people like us that live in warm sunny climates where we can put the tortoises outside for direct sunshine periodically, I feel that the ambient lighting is MORE important than the indoor UV lighting. For people in the UK, Canada, or some of the colder parts of the US, indoor UV tubes are much more important.

Here is a typical incandescent flood lamp. Be careful not to get "65 watt replacement" LED type bulb for the basking lamp. You want a regular incandescent type. The packaging has gotten very confusing in the last few years.

 

[paemaker]

Yes. The UV tube should not be on all day long. The UV tube should only be on for a few hours mid day. Also UV tubes are not all that bright. Your basking bulb is also not all that bright. Think of how bright it is outside during the day in the sunshine. THAT is what we are trying to simulate indoors. Ambient light and the basking lamp needs to be on for 12-13 hours a day. The UV tube only needs to be on 2-3 hours mid day.

If the UV tube you mentioned means the UVB light bulb, I always turn it on all day long, and for the basking bulb, I turn it on only 2-3 hours in the morning and another 3 hours in the afternoon because my basking bulb is very hot since it's 100 watts. I was told that UVB is more important than UVA, so that's why I do it like so.

Here is a typical incandescent flood lamp. Be careful not to get "65 watt replacement" LED type bulb for the basking lamp. You want a regular incandescent type. The packaging has gotten very confusing in the last few years.

Now I see what it looks like. The next thing is I gotta figure out what it's called in Thai. I've been trying to learn how many different light bulbs there are out there recently. It seems confusing at some point, but I'll figure it out.

I think this is probably the end of this thread. I've learned a lot from this forum so far and I hope I can get a better understanding of new things in the future. I'm sure I'll be back to ask something again very soon, but until that day, thank you so much for helping me. 🙏

 

[paemaker]

I really forgot to ask you this, about the enclosure, but I'll create a post thread again, so it is separate from this one. I hope to see you again on that tread. 😄