Kelly, Tom, Dean and Neal's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments

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Tom

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I would love to see pics Len. You are the first person I've heard for whom the wet method didn't work. I'd love to know exactly what you were doing to try to figure out why it did not work for you. I've often referred to MY wet routine as the shotgun approach. I hit them with everything all the time. I have not yet tried to determine which single element has the greatest effect on its own yet. Understanding what you have done differently might help us gain insight into which element of the "wet" routine really has the greatest effect. Neal has told me in the past that he thinks that it might be more about hydration and humidity is secondary or even not important at all. Recently a friend confirmed the opposite of what Neal believes when he told me his super smooth leopards were raised with no water bowl, once a week soaks, but in a very warm humid room and with constantly damp substrate in a tall sided glass tank, and a humid hide. Oh what a mystery....

So Len,
For your failed attempts:
What substrate?
How damp?
Ambient humidity percentage?
How often did you soak?
How often did you spray the shell?
Humid hide box?
Ambient temp, both day and night?
Basking temp?
Incandescent bulb in a dome?

From your post it sounds like you were trying top stop pyramiding in progress. I have found this to be EXPONENTIALLY harder than preventing pyramiding in the first place. I have done it successfully many times now, but sometimes it takes months to see even the slightest improvement.

Any insight here is welcomed and appreciated.
 

Len B

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Here are some pics taken yesterday,I can't answer all your questions correctly without looking for my notes,but the substrate was my own mix of 4 to 5 inches of mulched organic materials consisting mostly of leaves and twigs that had composted undisturbed for at least 3 years, most of is was 4 and 5 year old compost, with a layer of cypress mulch on top. This mix holds moisture better than anything I have tried,and doesn't get funky with time.The humidity level was high enough to keep the glass walls wet away from the basking lights, but I don't remember the exact number.The basking lights and the che were their favorite places to hang out, this is where I thought the problems were, their shells dried out on top so quick even with all the humidity around them, but with it so wet it had to be kept very warm, which increased their activity and food intake,it seemed to become a viscous circle of constantly checking temps and humidity levels, spraying and soaking with poor results. The hides were made of aged treated decking boards 5 1/4 x 6 which would always be wet near the bottom and the torts would dig down while inside,but they never dug down outside them.
 

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Len said:
Here are some pics taken yesterday,I can't answer all your questions correctly without looking for my notes,but the substrate was my own mix of 4 to 5 inches of mulched organic materials consisting mostly of leaves and twigs that had composted undisturbed for at least 3 years, most of is was 4 and 5 year old compost, with a layer of cypress mulch on top. This mix holds moisture better than anything I have tried,and doesn't get funky with time.The humidity level was high enough to keep the glass walls wet away from the basking lights, but I don't remember the exact number.The basking lights and the che were their favorite places to hang out, this is where I thought the problems were, their shells dried out on top so quick even with all the humidity around them, but with it so wet it had to be kept very warm, which increased their activity and food intake,it seemed to become a viscous circle of constantly checking temps and humidity levels, spraying and soaking with poor results. The hides were made of aged treated decking boards 5 1/4 x 6 which would always be wet near the bottom and the torts would dig down while inside,but they never dug down outside them.

What was your ambient temp typically at? The drying effect of the artificial lights is definitely a contributing factor here. This is a problem I encountered in my open topped enclosure especially. I have observed, and several other experienced keepers have also told me, that if they are kept at lower ambient temps, they use the basking lamps more. I keep my ambient at no lower than 80, but it creeps up to the low 90's during the day. At these temps, I find they don't use the basking lamps a whole lot. A little in the morning and maybe a little after a big meal, but other than that they tend to stay out from under the hot spots.

I think my next big project will be to figure out some alternative heating for baby sulcatas, in lieu of overhead hot bulbs... Thanks for the inspiration Len.
 

tortadise

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I have tried different methods of heat before it works pretty well. They are heating cables used for plants in greenhouses to heat the soil. The only issue is I had to bury them 6" or more. So the soil has to be deep. It works great too with the moisture in the soil increasing the humidity on the surface level.
 

Neal

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Tom said:
Recently a friend confirmed the opposite of what Neal believes when he told me his super smooth leopards were raised with no water bowl, once a week soaks, but in a very warm humid room and with constantly damp substrate in a tall sided glass tank, and a humid hide. Oh what a mystery....

Mystery indeed, this certainly mixes things up. As mentioned before on post #16, all of the leopards pictured there had never been exposed to elevated humidity, they spent there whole lives (until this summer with all the rain) in single digit humidity.
 

Len B

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I don't remember the exact temps but I do know the plastron temps were above 80 while the carapace temps were higher,I worried about them getting cold with all the moisture so I would check the plastron temps more than the carapace, I now use bottom heat more and found that with a warmer(not hot) soil it is easier to control the moisture and ambient air temps. Against what some people think, I found it is easier for me to make my own underground heating system and warming areas using self regulating heat tape cut to size and wattage for the individual tortoise and enclosure. Making them with this material no thermostat is required or necessary to keep a constant substrate tempature anywhere in the enclosure.
 

Tom

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Len, How often did you soak the ones that were pyramiding?

Neal, those leopards are with one of my mentors and they are out of the 2010 Gpp group. Next time I'm out there I'll get picks and weights and post it. When he told me what he was doing I was a bit surprised, but he says they are smooth. I have learned that some of the old timers version of "smooth" is a little different than mine. But given the direction you were going and what you were finding, I was still a little surprised. However his findings do line up with the 2003 Austrian study on sulcatas.
 

Len B

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I had a pyrex pie pan in the enclosure that was positioned so that they had to go in it to get to one of the basking areas,and back through it to get back to the hide and food dish, so basically they got soaked daily,I even tried placing a food dish in the center of a pie pan of water on an upside down dish to keep it above the water so they had to go in the water to eat, That didn't work out very well though.
 

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Not to break up this interesting turn of events...but I thought I'd chime in with some changes of my own. My guys were growing very slowly using the method I started them out with. Really, I've only changed one aspect...or two...but they're BIG! First, I abandoned the Tortoise Playpens...and now let them run the yard...they love it and have adapted very well...even interacting with the larger animals, all of which are very gentle with them. The other change is that I keep them in the kiddie pool for 2 hours in the morning and 2 hours in the afternoon. I keep it on even ground with about 1/2" of water...and given the extreme temps up here...the pool is always half in the sun, half in the shade. This is the technique I used to stop the pyramiding in my earlier animals two years ago! It's working great on these guys.

Oh yeah! Another change...there are only 5 babies now instead of the original six. Unfortunately, Pineapple succumbed to the so-called '3% infant mortality rule'...RIP Pineapple.

So here are the others in order of size! With the exception of Climber II, nobody has been named. They are just over three months old now!

The largest is 3.75" and weighs 160g...

21aerv6.jpg


The second largest is 3.25" and weighs 125g...

2z3yow5.jpg


Climber II is the third largest at 3.25" and 116g...

m8mejm.jpg


The second smallest is 3" and weighs 96g...

2h6yh02.jpg


The smallest (my daughter calls her KIKU) is now the runt...and has been steadily losing weight. She eats and eliminates fine. She may be intimidated by her (much) larger siblings. I'm going to isolate her in the next day or so! She is 2.75" and weighs 63g. She was 70g last week!

iyk5ls.jpg
 

LestatHIM

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This is an amazing thread!

I can't wait to see the results!

Tom, you mentioned you're looking for an alternative method for heating. I just figured out tonight that I can keep the temperatures/ humidity up in a closed enclosure using under the tank heat pads that are designed for keeping snakes. The heat rises through the glass an evaporates what ever moisture is in the hide directly above it. (This is with glass though and wouldn't work with wood or anything of the such.) You could also always trying to use Flexwatt heat tape too. Rig it up in such a way that you even put it under the substrate and cover it with some type of thin water resistant covering and let the heat rise through the substrate. You could hook it up to a thermostat and regulate the temperature of it as well if you'd like. I have developed racks for snakes using this method and it has been quite effective.

Just some ideas off the top of my head.

Keep up the great work guys! Babies are looking good!
 

tortadise

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LestatHIM said:
This is an amazing thread!

I can't wait to see the results!

Tom, you mentioned you're looking for an alternative method for heating. I just figured out tonight that I can keep the temperatures/ humidity up in a closed enclosure using under the tank heat pads that are designed for keeping snakes. The heat rises through the glass an evaporates what ever moisture is in the hide directly above it. (This is with glass though and wouldn't work with wood or anything of the such.) You could also always trying to use Flexwatt heat tape too. Rig it up in such a way that you even put it under the substrate and cover it with some type of thin water resistant covering and let the heat rise through the substrate. You could hook it up to a thermostat and regulate the temperature of it as well if you'd like. I have developed racks for snakes using this method and it has been quite effective.

Just some ideas off the top of my head.

Keep up the great work guys! Babies are looking good!

These are excellent methods to utilize. If you place rocks about 1" in size at the bottom with a 3-4" depth and fill it with water and place weed mat or egg crate on top of the rocks then put your mulch on top of it, this will sky rocket the humidity and keep the substrate dry and will also warm the substrate. its a method I use for terrariums and dart frogs.
 

lovelyrosepetal

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I am wondering if you have anything new to add to your findings and if you have anymore pictures to post? I find these experiments to be very educational and fascinating:) I hope to learn more!
 

DeanS

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I see I posted last about a month-and-a-half ago. Ironically, my three largest have put on about 15g apiece...and my two samllest are hovering in the same range as noted above. And they all look about the same as the shots above! I'm going to Tom's tomorrow...so I can see the difference between ours.
 

tortadise

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Yeah I need to snap some photos and guess get some weights on em. I know mine are getting to be little tanks.
 

Neal

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Not much new on my end. The tortoises started off growing quicker than the ones raised my usual way, but now they have slowed down. I don't expect to have anything conclusive for about a year.

They do, however, remain slightly more active throughout the day than the others I have raised.
 

DeanS

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Tom needs to get on the ball here...becuase his Sudans are growing quickly! His largest are almost 100g heavier than my largest!
 

DeanS

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Just got back from Tom's and all I can say is WOW!

1) His largest Sudans are twice the size of my largest!

2) His holdbacks look really good...even though he claims they're not smooth smooth

3) The Wild Bunch are AWESOME! Sure, they maybe a tad small but they are all blonde...or slight variations of blonde at least! But they are all VERY light!

And with Summer-like days dwindling, I'm abandoning my keep 'em out all day theory...and they'll spend the Winter and Spring in a closed chamber. Given that they're ONLY three years old, I'm gonna implement this for Climber and Jamie, as well!
 

Carlos83

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I've read SOOOOOO many articles on how to keep sulcatas.And so far tom's theory on the hole humidity makes sense I keep mine nice and humid if its ok I like to share some process pics on mine considering he almost:( died from being kept TO DRY .....
 
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