Nice pictures, Mike.Here is some pictures of how its setup . You see the pictures of the reds in full sun ? Where are they ? In water to cool down . I really never see them just sitting and baking themselves . Like my water turtles do .
Nice pictures, Mike.Here is some pictures of how its setup . You see the pictures of the reds in full sun ? Where are they ? In water to cool down . I really never see them just sitting and baking themselves . Like my water turtles do .
I find a few things of concern with this set up.. First of all.. A single uvb lamp will not emit the full spectrum that the sun provides if the tortoise is outside... A single heat emitter with a fan is strictly infrared emission. you the you the you L the you So you strictly rely on the uvb bulb you use to provide the entire spectrum the sun provides.. And that does not happen with any uvb bulb on the market. You need multiple bulbs of different kinds to fully hit the spectrum the sun provides. To me your habitat lacks the the full spectrum you would see outside. Where as the use of bulbs allow a wider range of possible sun like emissions. Tortoises see parts of the spectrum outside humans capabilities like infrared and deeper uv, it is how they distinguish food and all kinds of stuff.
Tortoises also like to bask. They are seen doing it all the time in nature. But yet all you are providing is ambient heat and no basking heat to really warm the core temp up. So maybe I am wrong but to me when I see my tortoises lay under a bulbs hot zone as part of their routine, to me I see some behavior as though that bulb is the sun. They bask.
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They like to fall asleep in the hot area even though my ambient temp is 85f. And my shaded moist areas can go down to about 75f. So they can easily reach any temp they want. Yet they choose the warmest area to sleep, sometimes for hours.
Also I feel like for Russian tortoise 90 f is to low. My tortoises will bask under a hot zone steady at 98f. Even though they can go to any area and reach any temp they like down to 75f during the day. And my night ambient temp is between 68 and 72 almost always.
And I never said you needed coconut oil. I said it can help, majority of keepers I see use some sort of bulb. Very few use radiant heat panels, or some style NON hot spot emitter like ceramic emitter. They still emit unfiltered infrared no matter how you cut it. If a tort chose to bask under any style of unfiltered basking lamp they are being bombarded with unfiltered emissions that interact with moisture through the habitat and the tortoises anatomy.
i am a little concerned by this post.I find a few things of concern with this set up.. First of all.. A single uvb lamp will not emit the full spectrum that the sun provides if the tortoise is outside... A single heat emitter with a fan is strictly infrared emission. you the you the you L the you So you strictly rely on the uvb bulb you use to provide the entire spectrum the sun provides.. And that does not happen with any uvb bulb on the market. You need multiple bulbs of different kinds to fully hit the spectrum the sun provides. To me your habitat lacks the the full spectrum you would see outside. Where as the use of bulbs allow a wider range of possible sun like emissions. Tortoises see parts of the spectrum outside humans capabilities like infrared and deeper uv, it is how they distinguish food and all kinds of stuff.
Tortoises also like to bask. They are seen doing it all the time in nature. But yet all you are providing is ambient heat and no basking heat to really warm the core temp up. So maybe I am wrong but to me when I see my tortoises lay under a bulbs hot zone as part of their routine, to me I see some behavior as though that bulb is the sun. They bask.
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They like to fall asleep in the hot area even though my ambient temp is 85f. And my shaded moist areas can go down to about 75f. So they can easily reach any temp they want. Yet they choose the warmest area to sleep, sometimes for hours.
Also I feel like for Russian tortoise 90 f is to low. My tortoises will bask under a hot zone steady at 98f. Even though they can go to any area and reach any temp they like down to 75f during the day. And my night ambient temp is between 68 and 72 almost always.
And I never said you needed coconut oil. I said it can help, majority of keepers I see use some sort of bulb. Very few use radiant heat panels, or some style NON hot spot emitter like ceramic emitter. They still emit unfiltered infrared no matter how you cut it. If a tort chose to bask under any style of unfiltered basking lamp they are being bombarded with unfiltered emissions that interact with moisture through the habitat and the tortoises anatomy.
This oil thing really chaps me . .
i am a little concerned by this post.
Tortoises do not see in infra red.
What is deep uv ?
Tortoises see UVA but not any 'deeper', they cannot see UVB.
Many people I know on the forum use CHE's for heating and most pet shops I have visited in Europe sell them for use with tortoises (and other animals).
I am about to embark on reading your huge coconut oil thread, but am now a little concerned that you are printing pages out of books and research papers to support your argument without understanding either science or how people keep tortoises.
I hope I am wrong because your tortoises look beautiful and i at least hope the coconut oil would be useful in the case of very dry and flaky shells.
I use a bulb only during long periods of very bad weather, mostly my tort is out in the day. I know no one else that uses a bulb at all in this country, they're not available here and no one I've met who owns a tortoise has even heard it is a good idea. There are hundreds of keepers in this city alone.
So perhaps the oil isn't necessary for us anyway.
But I do, honestly, look forward to reading the whole 'big thread' in more detail , as I am certain there is something to be learned here.
You think I should use several lamps also ?You know, I bet some extra virgin organic coconut oil would help with the chapping.
As far as I can tell it is being suggested that the use of UVB bulbs and basking bulbs dries out the tortoises carapace and so the use of this EVCO can replace lost moisture in the shell keratin. Fair enough, but surely the sun would dry out the tortoises even more, indeed more so, unless you use the full range of bulbs as is being suggested.You think I should use several lamps also ?
i am a little concerned by this post.
Tortoises do not see in infra red.
What is deep uv ?
Tortoises see UVA but not any 'deeper', they cannot see UVB.
Many people I know on the forum use CHE's for heating and most pet shops I have visited in Europe sell them for use with tortoises (and other animals).
I am about to embark on reading your huge coconut oil thread, but am now a little concerned that you are printing pages out of books and research papers to support your argument without understanding either science or how people keep tortoises.
I hope I am wrong because your tortoises look beautiful and i at least hope the coconut oil would be useful in the case of very dry and flaky shells.
I use a bulb only during long periods of very bad weather, mostly my tort is out in the day. I know no one else that uses a bulb at all in this country, they're not available here and no one I've met who owns a tortoise has even heard it is a good idea. There are hundreds of keepers in this city alone.
So perhaps the oil isn't necessary for us anyway.
But I do, honestly, look forward to reading the whole 'big thread' in more detail , as I am certain there is something to be learned here.
As far as I can tell it is being suggested that the use of UVB bulbs and basking bulbs dries out the tortoises carapace and so the use of this EVCO can replace lost moisture in the shell keratin. Fair enough, but surely the sun would dry out the tortoises even more, indeed more so, unless you use the full range of bulbs as is being suggested.
It is obvious that many keepers in colder climes such as out British friends and many in some parts of the USA need to provide UVB and heat for their tortoises for at least a few months a year, but to suggest using several bulbs is a little strange, these things are expensive, many keepers have to stretch themselves to replace theirs every six months or so and that's for just one bulb.
Many owners on this forum keep their tortoises almost entirely or, indeed, entirely in an indoor enclosure, people who live in flats, as just one example and many of their tortoises that i have seen photographed look perfectly alright to me as long as their set up is good.
I'm not saying they don't need to bask some do . They don't do it all day every day . So stop making them in small enclosures . Give them room To get away from the heat . Give them a humid hide . Give them water . Then maybe you will not need to rub oils all over your tortoise .
Interesting. I have a few questions.
1) I had no idea that tortoises see infrared. I'd love to see a reference along that line.
2) Not all tortoises like to bask. I have a Redfoot and a Mep and both avoid bright lights or at least don't linger there. I guess that isn't a question, more of a correction.
3) Have you considered that your tortoise sleeping under the lights is after heat and not illumination? Perhaps you could try a shaded area in the 90's.
4) which bulbs or combination of bulbs are you using that duplicates the entire spectrum of the sun? It would be awesome to see some spectroscopy.
5). What informs your assertion that most folks don't use CHE or radiant heat panels? It's a small sample size, but I don't know anyone that doesn't.
6) Getting back to your light-as-heat setup; have you considered the possibility that by providing adequate (as demonstrated by your tortoises behavior) heat only in combination with very bright, direct light, you are inadvertently creating the conditions that coconut oil may help with?
Sorry for so many questions. Inquiring minds just want to know
Firstly, thank you so much for replying in such detail and taking some considerable time to respond to these posts.The sun does NOT dry out the shell and skin like unfiltered basking bulbs do. The sun is strictly water filtered because of a presence of an atmosphere between the sun and earth that is completely filled with water vapor. All basking lamps are unfiltered because any emissions in the infrared side of the spectrum that emits IR-A and lacks a atmosphere between bulb and tort WILL be unfiltered. No atmosphere with water, no water filtration.
Now if you don't have a water filtered basking lamp.. And that basking lamp is used on any tortoise. That basking lamp promotes what is called localized heating and environmental dehydration. That is the super heated sections of beta and alpha Kerstin due to bad heat distribution from the lamps. The bad distribution of heat creates hot spots in the skin and shell due to over heating tissues vibrating and loosing both water from the blood and hydrogen from the alpha Kerstin amino acid chains which stabilize the entire protein.. Also due to some preliminary experiments on habitat dehydration from basking lamps that I am currently running. Set ups that use unfiltered basking lamps such as a 100 watt mercury vapor or other incandescent or halogen bulbs dehydrate the habitat by as much as 1.8 quarts of water a day when used in combo with one another lamp from lights on to lights off. Ever wonder why you are constantly soaking the substrate? It is because the unfiltered bulbs suck all the relative humidity out.
Here is a great article on unfiltered basking bulbs.
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/baskinghealth.html
Here is Dr.Francis Baines of the UVguide.uk talking about the difference between basking lamps and the sun. Who by the way I am in contact with about my research in reptile lighting, and who has agreed to review my work.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/84606/
This picture comes from someone who also worked with her on full spectrum lighting and made this picture repenting a full correct lighting scheme, that allows full spectrum of the sun being mimicked while offering the correct temp gradients.
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The idea of using many lamps to heat and light a tort has to do with basking zone vs basking 'spot and distribution of light correctly and evenly throughout so you don't have a dark area except for shaded areas.
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The use of one lamp will clearly give a basking' spot' which ultimately leads to poor thermal regulation, localized heating of tissues, and a narrow hot zone to move around in. This increases basking time as ambient heat isn't as good as it can be with the use of more then one lamp. All bulbs are engineered to have a coverage zone. Which on majority of bulbs are very little.. Only flood lamps offer a wide beam.. So the use of multiple lamps at a higher distance isn't dumb at all. It provides a wide basking zone, better ambient heat control, less localized heating and a better distribution of 'seeing' light.