Is using coconut oil worth using ?

[Elnewman622]

I've been using coconut oil to moisture my Russian Torts shell I don't use it a lot just when I think it is needed. I was wondering is it really worth it? It makes some what of of a differnce but not much. is it worth it in the long run? I don't want to be using it when I won't be seeing a chage.

 

[dmmj]

Someone is running an experiment on it. I don't see any harm, or good by using it, to be honest. So it is a expense, I don't incur.

 

[leigti]

There is an entire thread on it, the person in the thread keeps their tortoises indoors year-round and they are looking for a way to decrease the drying a fax of the hot lights. I used it about four or five times over the winter. I don't really know if it helped or not. But I think I will use it again next winter. I will not use it when my tortoise is out in the sun during the spring and summer. I don't want anything on the show between my tortoise and natural sunlight.
I guess he will just have to decide for yourself what you think about it. If you do try it use it sparingly and wipe off the extra.

 

[glitch4200]

I've been using coconut oil to moisture my Russian Torts shell I don't use it a lot just when I think it is needed. I was wondering is it really worth it? It makes some what of of a differnce but not much. is it worth it in the long run? I don't want to be using it when I won't be seeing a chage.

What kind of change are you looking to see is my question? Coconut oil acts as a biofilm. It creates a chemical reaction within the alpha and beta keratin of the tortoise which are proteins that are combined amino acids.. These amino acids react with the organic acids and minerals in the coconut oil. My theory is that it increases alpha keratin (which you can't see) while gently decreasing beta keratin proliferation. (which you can't see). Technically the only thing you can 'see' is a shiny shell. Everything that happens is not able to be seen by the eyes. This is why understanding the biology of the proteins that make up the tortoises shell. (alpha and beta keratin) and the biochemistry of the amino acids and the biochemistry of the coconut oil is so important.

Take this graph for example. This is what a scute looks like broken down to its smallest components, first look top right corner.
Then it gets broken down even farther... My goal is to determine how coconut oil effects the keratin expression and yes coconut oil decomposes into lactic acid which breaks down the process of beta keratin and increases aloha keratin. Alpha keratin is responsible for intracellular hydraulics that controls many process of the tortoise. (thermal regulation, Keratin hydrstion, biological action potential in proteins, etc.) Everything is effected by the artificial lamps that break hydrogen bonds. These bonds breaking is very detrimental to a Tortoise, as these bonds break the alpha keratin is suppressed creating a chain reaction, boosting beta keratin production is bad becuase it adds massive stress on the underlying bone.



Almost everything is unseen. But trust me it's there..

 

[mikeylazer]

What kind of change are you looking to see is my question? Coconut oil acts as a biofilm. It creates a chemical reaction within the alpha and beta keratin of the tortoise which are proteins that are combined amino acids.. These amino acids react with the organic acids and minerals in the coconut oil. My theory is that it increases alpha keratin (which you can't see) while gently decreasing beta keratin proliferation. (which you can't see). Technically the only thing you can 'see' is a shiny shell. Everything that happens is not able to be seen by the eyes. This is why understanding the biology of the proteins that make up the tortoises shell. (alpha and beta keratin) and the biochemistry of the amino acids and the biochemistry of the coconut oil is so important.

Take this graph for example. This is what a scute looks like broken down to its smallest components, first look top right corner. View attachment 133247
Then it gets broken down even farther... My goal is to determine how coconut oil effects the keratin expression and yes coconut oil decomposes into lactic acid which breaks down the process of beta keratin and increases aloha keratin. Alpha keratin is responsible for intracellular hydraulics that controls many process of the tortoise. (thermal regulation, Keratin hydrstion, biological action potential in proteins, etc.) Everything is effected by the artificial lamps that break hydrogen bonds. These bonds breaking is very detrimental to a Tortoise, as these bonds break the alpha keratin is suppressed creating a chain reaction, boosting beta keratin production is bad becuase it adds massive stress on the underlying bone.
View attachment 133249


Almost everything is unseen. But trust me it's there..

So its good?...

 

[SteveW]

So its good?...

And what is good, Phadreus,
And what is not good?
Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

Its only my opinion but we soak our torts to keep moisture in the tort but now you want to put coconut oil or any oil that will keep moisture out of the shell . It don't make sense to me . But I guess I could be wrong .

 

[Alaskamike]

I think as with any husbandry technique. it depends allot of your set up, where in the world you are, ambient temps, humidity, and how much time you have to attend to your torts. The high humid enclosed environments have been recommended and set up to counteract the drying out of shells, especially the desiccating effects of lamps. There is a huge difference in raising torts on open top tables indoors under artificial sunlight and heat lamps, outdoors in Arizona with low humidity or outside in South Florida with high humidity. There are differences between summer and winter issues no matter where you live.

What we take into account is the principle, and then adapt our environments to follow the principle of best care practices. The type of tortoise, age, etc, is also a consideration.

Shell structure, bone development remains much the same. But diet issues and temp variants do vary by species. There is no exact "one size fits all". This is why some inventiveness is helpful.

I approach my charges with the idea that I am creating not a duplicate of their wild environment, but as much as possible an improvement on it. This is especially true of very young ones. In the wild the attrition rate is 90-100% for cohorts some years. We strive for 100% survival.

I wish I had known about both high humidity and coconut oil back in the 90's when I was trying to rescue Sulcatas in Alaska. They had to be raised indoors, always on open tables, or breezway floors where even with an indoor humidifier the averages were 30-40% and many people did not even do that and the indoor humidity in winter would fall below 20%. Add this to heat and UV lamps and all the Sulcata I saw had severe pyramiding - regardless of diet. I saved a few from dog food diets, no water, or only lettuce but the shell deformations did not improve much. I just didn't know.

This seems a long way around the block to say this - We can always improve and learn more. There is good indication that coconut oil can have a very positive effect on maintaining shell hydration, as well as an anti bacteria and anti fungal effect. If you have an enclosed high humid chamber environment, this may not have much benefit, however if you raise your tort outdoors in a dry environment, or on an open top table it would.

I know we soak our torts on a regular basis, but this soaking is not to hydrate their shells as we do not cover them all the way up. The moisture that is absorbed is through the skin, not the shell. They drink, which is the best hydration for them.

I use EVCO more as an anti fugal in South Florida, as low humidity is not much of an issue, except for a few months in the winter. Mine live out doors. In their hide now at 7:30 am it is 77f with 86% humidity and that is from the environment. It will be over 90f today. In studying the properties of coconut oil I don't see any real downside to application. Like any husbandry, effects are long term, I would not expect any quick changes. IMO is can't hurt, and potentially can help. That is enough for me to apply it about once a week in winter here, about once every 2 weeks in summer. If I was raising mine under artificial lamps. even in enclosed chambers, I'd use it more often.

 

[glitch4200]

Its only my opinion but we soak our torts to keep moisture in the tort but now you want to put coconut oil or any oil that will keep moisture out of the shell . It don't make sense to me . But I guess I could be wrong .

We do soak our tortoises to keep water in. But usually in a soak only half of them is covered. Humidity provides the equilibrium for the alpha and beta keratin, soaks for internal hydration and skin hydrstion, and clean water for drinking(internal hydrstion) . These are the only ways your tortoise is getting hydrated... Now. Let's talk about artificial lamps..

When a Tortoise is exposed to low humidity table tops and high powered artificial lamps which emit high levels of 'unfiltered' Infrared. The tortoises shell and skin behind to undergo huge biological changes. ( 100% unnatural biological changes). This change has to do with the biochemistry of the keratin. When a Tortoise is under a low humidity lamp the lamp itself heats the shell cresting localized hot spots. Shown here in my thermal imaging study I did for myself. You can see localized hot spots that are completely unnatural and never occur in nature.

These hot spots are breaking hydrogen molecules away from the protein. Essentially what happens is the lamp super heats the surrounding protein and blood tissues. This makes a hydrogen molecule seperate from the helical chain of alpha keratin. Here is the molecule structure of alpha keratin. You can see how hydrogen pretty much severely stabilizes the coil that makes aloha keratin. Without hydrogen the coil breaks into random assignment.

These bonds breaking decreases the action potential of the alpha keratin by decreasing intracellular hydraulics within the helical alpha chains. This decrease in hydraulics prompts a counter active measurre by proteins. This counter active measure is called proliferation of beta keratin bundles. Increasing beta keratin production dirextly increases bone stress. As the very stiff, dehydrated beta keratin grows all that shearing is directed to the bone below becuase of over production of beta keratin to protect alpha keratin. The only function of beta keratin is protection of the soft highly active alpha keratin. The only function of alpha keratin is to allow proper intracellular hydraulics between the blood vessels and surround tissue and bone.

Irreversible damage to proteins that are severely dehydrated.. Well any tortoise expose to low humidity and how powered lamps can and will do Irreversible damage to the biological component of the alpha and beta keratin.

The more I learn about hydrogen bonding the more scary this becomes.. People have no idea the Irreversible damage they are casuinf to arguably the most important system on a Tortoise.
Hydrophobic and hydrophilic forces place a huge role in protein folding.


If a proteins fails to fold it can destabilize the entire keratin system.


Mechanical stress of the keratin from hydrstion to dehydration stretches and pulls on the filament network also permenetly changing it if under enough stress.

Gene express is effected by this mechanical stress of keratin..

Do you not see how deep this is getting for me? I'll explain why coconut oil is so good for what I just described.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

I read your info . And it's very informative but what I was saying don't the coconut oil prevent moisture from entering through the shell , and air , and natural moisture from leaving the torts body ? Maybe I would understand better if you Sumerize all the info . You wrote .

 

[glitch4200]

I read your info . And it's very informative but what I was saying don't the coconut oil prevent moisture from entering through the shell , and air , and natural moisture from leaving the torts body ? Maybe I would understand better if you Sumerize all the info . You wrote .

Yes and no. Coconut oil seems to prevent the breaking of hydrogen bonds from the lamps, from what I am understanding. But also makes the Keratin more hydrophobic to external water sources like humidity and microclimate.

Coconut oil acts as a barrier but that barrier decomposes due to moisture and heat, which the tort is readily exposed too.. So now it is all about balancing how much coconut oil I apply to how fast it decomposes into organic acids. Check this out.. This is the decomposition of coconut oil under about 37 c. And high moisture availability.

Funny thing is.. My tortoise has decent humidity and basks happily at 37 c. So this oil applied to him in these conditions allows me to use this graph as reference as to the decomposition of coconut oil and what will be effecting the Keratin after it does decompose into these acids..


So now there is a few other components to this, I will be updating my thread soon on all this so I won't go into as much detail.. But. .

Coconut oil has infrared absorption properties that are quite amazing... And finally was able to overlay a bunch of charts together and found out that coconut oil really dampens the effect 'unfiltered' infrared.. Pretty much the bulbs we use.. All peak in the worst places... They peak in the water hungry zone.. Shown here.. The blue highlight shows water absorption bands. This chart is a special chart.. I'll explain later.

These water hungry zones are what cause the tissues to heat rapidly as a bulb is very poor at heating evenly and the bulb being used is severely dehydrating the tortoise as a lamp peaks in these water hungry zones while being turned on..

The graph is special.. Instead of coconut oil.. To solve the whole high humidity to counter act lamps issue... Water filtered infrared is the answer.. This graph is actually an irridiation chart from a hydrosun lamp. It is a medical lamp used to rehydrate skin and repair intracellular hydration in cells. This lamp if put down into a practical device for keepers would effectively end the need for really high humidity habitats and completely destroy my need for coconut oil.. Coconut oil is not a solution to the unfiltered lamp issue.. It is just a counteractivr measure to help ease the damage these lamps are causing on a biological level in indoor kept tortoises and other reptiles for that matter . My goal is to to replicate this design for use in indoor tortoise and reptile keeping. It would filter infrared and repair and rehydrate cells instead of dehydrate them like what is being done now..


Humans don't care about this idea becuse we have the filtered sun.. That is why this lamp is only used in a medical setting.. Which by the way is pretty new stuff... If we can filter artificial lamps we could effectively keep tortoises indoors and very closely mimic the wild, as you would in an outdoor enclosure..

 

[glitch4200]

So coconut is applied to the keratin is all about balance.. Knowing it decomposes into an acid.. And knowing beta keratin which is the hard layer of the shell is created in a basic environment.. Organic acids will eat the beta keratin.. Thus decreasing bets keratin production.. This lessens the mechanical stress on the underlying bone.. Alpha keratin is acid environment.. So the coconut oil actually boosts the alpha keratin production.. Her is my female Russian tortoise.. Her alpha keratin production is crazy... She is growing like a weed... Ad her bone growth is excellent.





I mean look how swollen the alpha keratin is at the hinge regions of the scutes.. And it's not just in little spots.. It's spread even all over.. Think of alpha keratin a pool and beta keratin as a floating top. As bone grows it expands but it needs a nice pool to do so.

I have seen lateral growth less then vertical growth. Which is what I aiming for.. You want a tortoise to grow smooth to the ground not push up in a pyramid. Which we all know..

But I know that inhibited and inhibiting alpha keratin will make it way harder for proper growth. And artificial lamps inhibit and are constantly inhibiting aloha Keratjn in due to rapid breaking of hydrogen bonds.

 

[glitch4200]

Here is her recent x ray for bone evaluation.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Love the x-rays.
All very interesting and I must get around to reading that huge thread about this.
I'm still decidedly undecided.

 

[Alaskamike]

This experiment and research about EVCO reminds me of the many revolutionary changes over the last 10 yrs or more on tortoise husbandry techniques.

Even after 100ds if not 1000'ds of baby torts raised smooth in high humid environments some seasoned keepers resist the efficacy of closed chambers. It seemed counter intuitive to raise a " desert species" in 80% humidity.

The debates over this were frequent and sometimes heated.

One difference here with EVCO is the research glitch has done. Granted there are no double blind studies and being a newish idea , no large numbers of babies raised ( yet) with EVCO application. However , the science looks very promising.

My rescue Sulcata is improving greatly the initial pyramiding with all the changes I've made. EVCO is only one of them. Too many variables to know how it contributed to the improvements.

Sometimes you just have to learn what you can and give it your best shot.

I use EVCO as a part of overall care. In all my research I see no down side - only potential benefits.

 

[mike taylor]

You really don't need it . Ditch the hot lights and use a small heater on a thermostat . Then install a humidifier on the same thermostat . So heat is on the same time the humidifier is on . This keeps the enclosure warm and humid without drying out the tortoises shell . In the wild they aren't running around in full sun . They are hiding in shrubs or underground . You don't have to bake them with hot lights . With my reds I have been using a small heater ,a uvb fixture , humidifier ,and a small fan to keep the air moving works great . I've had no shell rot since they have been here with me . The enclosure stay 85 on the cool side then 90 on the hot side . The heater is mounted with a fan blowing the hot air down . So that side stays a little warmer .

 

[SteveW]

You really don't need it . Ditch the hot lights and use a small heater on a thermostat . Then install a humidifier on the same thermostat . So heat is on the same time the humidifier is on . This keeps the enclosure warm and humid without drying out the tortoises shell . In the wild they aren't running around in full sun . They are hiding in shrubs or underground . You don't have to bake them with hot lights . With my reds I have been using a small heater ,a uvb fixture , humidifier ,and a small fan to keep the air moving works great . I've had no shell rot since they have been here with me . The enclosure stay 85 on the cool side then 90 on the hot side . The heater is mounted with a fan blowing the hot air down . So that side stays a little warmer .

Word.

 

[glitch4200]

You really don't need it . Ditch the hot lights and use a small heater on a thermostat . Then install a humidifier on the same thermostat . So heat is on the same time the humidifier is on . This keeps the enclosure warm and humid without drying out the tortoises shell . In the wild they aren't running around in full sun . They are hiding in shrubs or underground . You don't have to bake them with hot lights . With my reds I have been using a small heater ,a uvb fixture , humidifier ,and a small fan to keep the air moving works great . I've had no shell rot since they have been here with me . The enclosure stay 85 on the cool side then 90 on the hot side . The heater is mounted with a fan blowing the hot air down . So that side stays a little warmer .

I find a few things of concern with this set up.. First of all.. A single uvb lamp will not emit the full spectrum that the sun provides if the tortoise is outside... A single heat emitter with a fan is strictly infrared emission. you the you the you L the you So you strictly rely on the uvb bulb you use to provide the entire spectrum the sun provides.. And that does not happen with any uvb bulb on the market. You need multiple bulbs of different kinds to fully hit the spectrum the sun provides. To me your habitat lacks the the full spectrum you would see outside. Where as the use of bulbs allow a wider range of possible sun like emissions. Tortoises see parts of the spectrum outside humans capabilities like infrared and deeper uv, it is how they distinguish food and all kinds of stuff.

Tortoises also like to bask. They are seen doing it all the time in nature. But yet all you are providing is ambient heat and no basking heat to really warm the core temp up. So maybe I am wrong but to me when I see my tortoises lay under a bulbs hot zone as part of their routine, to me I see some behavior as though that bulb is the sun. They bask.


They like to fall asleep in the hot area even though my ambient temp is 85f. And my shaded moist areas can go down to about 75f. So they can easily reach any temp they want. Yet they choose the warmest area to sleep, sometimes for hours.


Also I feel like for Russian tortoise 90 f is to low. My tortoises will bask under a hot zone steady at 98f. Even though they can go to any area and reach any temp they like down to 75f during the day. And my night ambient temp is between 68 and 72 almost always.

And I never said you needed coconut oil. I said it can help, majority of keepers I see use some sort of bulb. Very few use radiant heat panels, or some style NON hot spot emitter like ceramic emitter. They still emit unfiltered infrared no matter how you cut it. If a tort chose to bask under any style of unfiltered basking lamp they are being bombarded with unfiltered emissions that interact with moisture through the habitat and the tortoises anatomy.

 

[mike taylor]

You are right I don't use ten different uvb lamps . I have two in a four foot fixtures . I also have red footed tortoises not Russians . When my reds are out in their outside enclosure they stay in their hides most of the day or in water to cool down I guess . They love mud holes . My sulcatas set up outside is done the same way . Only I use do not use uvb . But they can come and go as they will . So I will stand by my setups they work and I have no burned dried out tortoises . I have no breathing problems that most ask about . My tortoises also go to the vet for yearly check ups with no problems . So is there more than one way to do something Yes . If this will work for Russians I have no idea but you can try and see . I know Tom has tried something close to what I'm saying with heat panels . With sulcatas . He has a thread on his setup . Just because your tortoise shell is at 98 ° doesn't make one way right and another wrong . When my tortoises are outside in summer the hide from these temperatures . I rarely see them out in high sun . If they are they are sitting in their mud holes .

 

[mike taylor]

Here is some pictures of how its setup . You see the pictures of the reds in full sun ? Where are they ? In water to cool down . I really never see them just sitting and baking themselves . Like my water turtles do .