Zoo visit made me sad

[Yvonne G]

Please remember that while everyone is allowed to express their opinion on the forum, being rude or argumentative about it is not permitted.

 

[jason g.]

Well time to leave this thread. Evidently a new tort owner is dumb and shouldnt have any concerns. The Cincinnati zoo is a wonderful zoo but they to expressed there concern if there was a problem and from the sounds of it they were really pretty open minded to outside opinions. Sorry your upset but I really do think concern was said out of kindness on TaraDodrills behalf not to talk crap. She even said in her 1st post the cincy zoo was one of her favorites. Sorry your angry I don't think that was the point of this thread to anger anyone. Just to express concern.

 

[EricIvins]

Well time to leave this thread. Evidently a new tort owner is dumb and shouldnt have any concerns. The Cincinnati zoo is a wonderful zoo but they to expressed there concern if there was a problem and from the sounds of it they were really pretty open minded to outside opinions. Sorry your upset but I really do think concern was said out of kindness on TaraDodrills behalf not to talk crap. She even said in her 1st post the cincy zoo was one of her favorites. Sorry your angry I don't think that was the point of this thread to anger anyone. Just to express concern.

New Tortoise owners aren't "dumb", but they are uneducated.......They don't know how Zoos work, and only see the surface. Reading the proverbial "book without the cover" in regards to what they see.......There are quite a few threads on this forum about the same situations........

There is a difference between rational thinking, and letting your emotions get the best of you.........Unfortunately the latter tends to take over when one has no experience in how these situations work......

With that said, no Zoo in their right mind will loan off Galops without knowing what is going to be done with them......This encompasses more than one Institution, so more than one person was involved in the decision making process. This tells me that the teams involved know the perceived risks involved, and dont forsee any issues with them. I can sleep at night with that.......Can you?

 

[jason g.]

Yep sure can

 

[TaraDodrill]

Eric, you made several logical and rational points in your post Every situation is different. In this situation, although I am a novice tort owner, I am not a novice reptile or animal owner. I have covered animal issues as a professional journalists for years, frequently working with and covering zoos, sanctuaries, refuges etc and attending state legislative conference on animals related issues.

In this instance, there were pyramiding issues and concerns about indoor and outdoor habitat size. Questions about future enclosure plans as these giant torts grow, husbandry and conservation questions were planned in advance with the zoo for the article and questions about safety of people(eating snacks) and strollers going through the open habitat were also legitimate.

Personally, yes it was emotionally upsetting and frustrating since the torts were in professional care. Professionally as a journalist I tucked my initial emotional response away and contacted the appropriate zoo officials to clarify questions/concerns and give the zoo every opportunity to clarify and address the issues before going to print. The zoo official noted the mistakes they have made while learning to better care for the torts.

Being a novice tort owner does not have anything to do with knowing how a zoo works in my opinion. You had no way of knowing my many hours of volunteer efforts with animals or time spent covering animal issues when you posted, and were not rude but I just want to point out that it is best to know all the information before passing judgment or assuming, which is the courtesy I extended to the zoo.

I shared a personal emotional impression with a professional response, perhaps I should have clarified better in the initial post. There are valid concerns with the Galapagos tort husbandry and enclosure and thankfully the zoo is working to fix them. Hopefully the staff which is tasked with informing the public about the torts during "keeper experiences" wil be better trained or have references in the future as well. A politely posed suggestion which was well received.

Have a good weekend tort lovers

 

[Edna]

Somewhere my mother has a picture of a five or six year old Tom riding a Galapagos tortoise in the enclosure at the SD Zoo. I can't say for sure, but I doubt I would be here right now typing this on a tortoise forum if it were not for that childhood tortoise riding experience. That is where I first fell in love with tortoises.

This is exactly what I was thinking about as I read this thread. Zoos are where children fall in love with animals. Wildlive biologists and conservationists and advocates are spawned at zoos. The OP mentioned her childhood fascination with the elephants, and ascot her appreciation of the aligator. As I child I made almost weekly trips to the Cheyenne Mountain zoo in Colorado Springs. There I got to hold hands with a black Wooly Monkey and pet the hippo's muzzle as he waited for popcorn to be dropped into his mouth. Priceless experiences for me.
Zoos may be unable to provide absolutely ideal care that meets the standards of every visitor. The individual animal on display in a zoo represents his species, which no doubt benefits on the whole from the fact that people visit zoos.

 

[Cherbear]

Gee, We went there last September and either I missed the habitat your speaking of or it was shut down for some reason. I know I would have remembered that. Anyway, thought I would share a few pics of the torts I did take while I was there. I hope no one minds. Would love to see pics of the habitat I missed.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

I can't say that I share the POV expressed here. I think zoos are great and for the most part do an excellent job of caring for their animals. Sure there are exceptions. A lot of times the zoo people with good intentions are torn between political correctness, bureaucratic red tape, budgetary restraints, animal rightist non-sense, and yes, sometimes even some ignorance. I have studied wild animals in the wild and I have personally worked in two different zoos, as well as touring many others behind the scenes. Let me tell you something. If I were reincarnated as an African or Asian elephant, the first thing I would do is hunt for a ship to jump on to get to an American Zoo. Have you seen the footage of that elephant being torn apart and eaten while still alive by an entire pride of lions? It took them all night to bring that elephant down, and it took hours for that elephant to finally reach the comfort and relief of death. Life in the wild is hard, cruel, relentless and totally unforgiving. Sure you have more space. More space for predators and parasites to get you. More space to starve to death in. More space for ivory poachers to hunt you in. More space for villagers to shoot and torture you for eating their crops. More space for your rivals to attack and harass you. More space for competing herds to drive you out of... You get the point. Just the foot care that they receive in a zoo would be worth it, not to mention an unlimited supply of excellent food, and the temperature controlled barns. Life in a Zoo ain't so bad, and life in the wild ain't all rosy all the time. How many of you people have even been to the countries where these animals are from? Things there are not like they are here. All things considered, if I were a wild animal and I had the choice, I'd take the cushy zoo life. And I'd MUCH rather be a sulcata in one of my pens, than a sulcata in a hole in the ground in Sudan.

How many people would even know what Galapagos tortoise even is, if not for zoos? The San Diego Zoo used to have a ton of big Galaps and not only were patrons allowed to walk around in their enclosure, we were allowed to feed them and little kids were allowed to sit on them and ride them for pics. Somewhere my mother has a picture of a five or six year old Tom riding a Galapagos tortoise in the enclosure at the SD Zoo. I can't say for sure, but I doubt I would be here right now typing this on a tortoise forum if it were not for that childhood tortoise riding experience. That is where I first fell in love with tortoises. If I had only been able to look at them from a distance, or if they had not been there at all, who would I be today? Those animals had the choice to walk away, they had several areas they could go to if they wanted to be left alone and some of them did go there. But the majority of them wanted and enjoyed the interaction and attention.

I seriously doubt that any of the germs on a human hand are going to have any effect on a tortoise. It is possible for someone to walk in their own tortoise pen at home and then track something into the Galop pen on their shoe, but a simple foot bath could solve this problem. You've all heard my spiel on not mixing species and disease potential, and here I'm the one saying I think the risk is acceptable in this case. Now as soon as they try to put some other tortoise species in this enclosure, I'll be the first to jump up and down and rant and rave... The benefit of personal interaction with these amazing animals far outweighs the minor disease risk for these animals in my opinion.

As far as the pyramiding thing goes, that ship sailed along time ago for these babies. You should be talking to the facility in TX that started them about that.

By all means, make every effort to improve the lives of captive animals, but I think slamming this Zoo is not called for.

Nicely put, Tom!

 

[ascott]

Let me tell you something. If I were reincarnated as an African or Asian elephant, the first thing I would do is hunt for a ship to jump on to get to an American Zoo.

If I were reincarnated as an African or Asian Elephant I would wish that humans would not rape the earth thinking that they have the right to consume all that she has to offer....a world of balance is what I would seek out..... Not a ship to take me to a place that humans once again "think" is the land of plenty....

Tom, there is nothing in your post that "offends" me, and if it did that would be alright, as I like you and I too have my feelings and opinions on this particular subject.....I have yet to see in person a Galap Tortoise and I do not ever want to seek out one to see one in a zoo as my point of reference....I would much rather watch a documentary that shows them where they belong.....

The same with the Lions, Tigers and bears----oh my

 

[yagyujubei]

Here's a video of the exhibit, which is nearly three weeks old now. So you can see the 'deplorable' conditions there.
http://cincinnatizoo.org/blog/animals/galapagos-tortoise/

 

[Benjamin]

I can't say that I share the POV expressed here. I think zoos are great and for the most part do an excellent job of caring for their animals. Sure there are exceptions. A lot of times the zoo people with good intentions are torn between political correctness, bureaucratic red tape, budgetary restraints, animal rightist non-sense, and yes, sometimes even some ignorance. I have studied wild animals in the wild and I have personally worked in two different zoos, as well as touring many others behind the scenes. Let me tell you something. If I were reincarnated as an African or Asian elephant, the first thing I would do is hunt for a ship to jump on to get to an American Zoo. Have you seen the footage of that elephant being torn apart and eaten while still alive by an entire pride of lions? It took them all night to bring that elephant down, and it took hours for that elephant to finally reach the comfort and relief of death. Life in the wild is hard, cruel, relentless and totally unforgiving. Sure you have more space. More space for predators and parasites to get you. More space to starve to death in. More space for ivory poachers to hunt you in. More space for villagers to shoot and torture you for eating their crops. More space for your rivals to attack and harass you. More space for competing herds to drive you out of... You get the point. Just the foot care that they receive in a zoo would be worth it, not to mention an unlimited supply of excellent food, and the temperature controlled barns. Life in a Zoo ain't so bad, and life in the wild ain't all rosy all the time. How many of you people have even been to the countries where these animals are from? Things there are not like they are here. All things considered, if I were a wild animal and I had the choice, I'd take the cushy zoo life. And I'd MUCH rather be a sulcata in one of my pens, than a sulcata in a hole in the ground in Sudan.

How many people would even know what Galapagos tortoise even is, if not for zoos? The San Diego Zoo used to have a ton of big Galaps and not only were patrons allowed to walk around in their enclosure, we were allowed to feed them and little kids were allowed to sit on them and ride them for pics. Somewhere my mother has a picture of a five or six year old Tom riding a Galapagos tortoise in the enclosure at the SD Zoo. I can't say for sure, but I doubt I would be here right now typing this on a tortoise forum if it were not for that childhood tortoise riding experience. That is where I first fell in love with tortoises. If I had only been able to look at them from a distance, or if they had not been there at all, who would I be today? Those animals had the choice to walk away, they had several areas they could go to if they wanted to be left alone and some of them did go there. But the majority of them wanted and enjoyed the interaction and attention.

I seriously doubt that any of the germs on a human hand are going to have any effect on a tortoise. It is possible for someone to walk in their own tortoise pen at home and then track something into the Galop pen on their shoe, but a simple foot bath could solve this problem. You've all heard my spiel on not mixing species and disease potential, and here I'm the one saying I think the risk is acceptable in this case. Now as soon as they try to put some other tortoise species in this enclosure, I'll be the first to jump up and down and rant and rave... The benefit of personal interaction with these amazing animals far outweighs the minor disease risk for these animals in my opinion.

As far as the pyramiding thing goes, that ship sailed along time ago for these babies. You should be talking to the facility in TX that started them about that.

By all means, make every effort to improve the lives of captive animals, but I think slamming this Zoo is not called for.

Thank you Tom. I have been frustrated over this thread long enough. I am glad to hear some comments other than zoo bashing. I checked out those pics of the tortoises, they are not nearly as bad as originally described. The first redfoot I hatched 13 years ago looks very similar. I must being doing something right since she is still alive and well.

 

[jason g.]

Thank you Tom. I have been frustrated over this thread long enough. I am glad to hear some comments other than zoo bashing. I checked out those pics of the tortoises, they are not nearly as bad as originally described. The first redfoot I hatched 13 years ago looks very similar. I must being doing something right since she is still alive and well.

She said it was new.; ) All this talk.about the zoo me and my wife decided to take the kids to the zoo in July .

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

Here's a video of the exhibit, which is nearly three weeks old now. So you can see the 'deplorable' conditions there.
http://cincinnatizoo.org/blog/animals/galapagos-tortoise/

I don't think its that deplorable. I've certainly seen worse.

 

[Tom]

Let me tell you something. If I were reincarnated as an African or Asian elephant, the first thing I would do is hunt for a ship to jump on to get to an American Zoo.

If I were reincarnated as an African or Asian Elephant I would wish that humans would not rape the earth thinking that they have the right to consume all that she has to offer....a world of balance is what I would seek out..... Not a ship to take me to a place that humans once again "think" is the land of plenty....

Tom, there is nothing in your post that "offends" me, and if it did that would be alright, as I like you and I too have my feelings and opinions on this particular subject.....I have yet to see in person a Galap Tortoise and I do not ever want to seek out one to see one in a zoo as my point of reference....I would much rather watch a documentary that shows them where they belong.....

The same with the Lions, Tigers and bears----oh my

Angela, I think you know that I like and respect you too. You have NEVER offended me and I enjoy our exchanges.

My step dad had a saying that seems appropriate for this discussion. "Wish in one hand and shi* in the other, and see what you end up with..."

While you are standing there as a reincarnated elephant, wishing for a better world where humans don't behave like humans, you'd probably be getting shot by some human doing what humans do. Many of us wish for a better world, BUT so far it hasn't happened. I base my opinions on what DOES exist, not what I wish existed.

---

I watched the video. I have to say I give the concept and its reality a thumbs up. If I get any where near Cincinnati, I will be partaking in a visit with the young Galops. Those tortoises are clearly at ease and eating a good diet. Their exhibit looks great. Sure I wish it were bigger, and someday soon it will be. I'm not surprised that the teeny bopper girls in the enclosure are not tortoise "experts". They are just there to smile, answer the SAME simple questions all day long, and make sure people behave. They are just young people hired to do a job. If they hired some intense nut-job like me or my good friend Cory to do that job, we might know all the answers, but we would likely scare away the zoo patrons with our intensity/enthusiasm. If they hired Dean, I fear that no one would be brave enough to dare enter the enclosure... Seems like they have the right person for that job to me. How many average zoo visitors are going to have the knowledge that a TFO member has?

Tara, the things that are accepted here on TFO as fact and obvious, like how to raise a baby tortoise with hydration and humidity, are not necessarily accepted by the reptile/animal community at large yet. We are at the leading edge of a new wave and a lot of old-timers don't accept it or agree with it. Many of them are watching and waiting. Many who first voiced opposition to these ideas are slowly coming around and opening their minds to it. The concepts are being considered and explored more and more, but these ideas are still not what I would call "mainstream" yet. What you are telling these people about pyramiding might be the first time they have ever heard this stuff.

My point in posting on your thread is not to oppose you (I like you), it is to propose another view point based on what I know and what I have experienced with zoos, animals and tortoises. Others who have not had the experiences that I have had might not have thought of things in the ways I see them, in the same way that others have enlightened me with their viewpoints and experiences that I have not yet had. Just sharing my thoughts on the matter is all.