Well I mean obviously we all know it's almost always better to buy from a breeder, a trusted one at that. No one likes I guess I should say "wasting money" but have you ever walked into a pet store like Petsmart, Petco, and other stores around and seen a poor tort in small living quarters that just looks miserable and wanted to buy them. I notice some people on here say they don't want to support stores like this by buying their merchandise/animals ect but I can't help but feel like this situation is like those of animals who have suffered abuse like dogs or cats. You just want to save the poor animal and help it live a better life. While I do understand that some are too far gone for help. But it's all rather sad.
Would you rather buy from a chain store (petco,Petsmart) or a breeder?
- Thread starter anm1221
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Breeder.
If you financially reward chain stores for housing animals that way, you perpetuate the cycle and subject even more tortoises to the same fate. Its really sad for those individuals, but lets not create the same problem for even MORE tortoises that will in turn need rescuing, while the stores line their pockets with our sympathy money...
If you financially reward chain stores for housing animals that way, you perpetuate the cycle and subject even more tortoises to the same fate. Its really sad for those individuals, but lets not create the same problem for even MORE tortoises that will in turn need rescuing, while the stores line their pockets with our sympathy money...
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Stores- NO
Breeders - yes
Buying from a chain store only exploits the problem further………
Breeders - yes
Buying from a chain store only exploits the problem further………
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There is actually a chain here in indiana that has a Russian tort for sale and his nails are overgrown and his beak is long as well, I think about buying him just to get him out of the situation.
Breeder or a previous owner. I would love to buy the pet store ones, if they would never, ever sell another animal.
Me, I did it. Went to get some dog food and I saw two darling Greeks which I had no idea were Greeks, plopped the cash and created two months of hell for myself. But, positive part was that I found this forum while researching. learned that Greeks are named after Greek mosaic tiles and not Greece, learned that there are sub-species-a-go-go depending where they are in the Middle East ...
I also learned about their possible journey to us, was mortified about the pictures of all these little Jordanian Greek tortoises thrown in a truck bed and clearly rolling and banging after being poached from the desert. I learned that the Princess Alia Foundation regularly gets confiscated tortoises and returns them to the desert. I went through a couple of months of daily wondering if today was the day they would die. They were zombie tortoises. They were skittish, they were shy, they would not eat. Read all I could, applied the advise that experts here had given others: soaking, baby food soaks, bird vitamin soaks, higher temperatures ... all.of.it. Applies it daily, Checked things every few hours. Wished for the best. Mentally prepared for the worst, like death. They finally came around from their stupor, from being so scared and shell shocked. I learned that is called acclimating. I learned that it is harder with wild caught tortoises. I learned that I was a beginner tortoise keeper and that doing the wild caught thing was best left for experts. Duh. I learned that the hard way.
I love my two geeky Greeks who made a geek out of me and I have no regrets for being a big dummy and getting them from a big box place-o-business with nary a clue. It was not easy but it has been worth it. I wanted to do right by my two little travellers and I am glad they put me through hell now. That's my bit.
And to answer your question, now that I have captive bred babies, leopards, to compare my experience to, I have to say, much more easy peasy from the get go. What a difference. So the better way is indeed from a breeder. But if your heart pulls like mine did that day, just be prepared and go seriously to bat for these poor animals. They do deserve better since being taken from their native land was not exactly nice, nor cool, nor morale. I am guilty of buying but I have no regrets.
I also learned about their possible journey to us, was mortified about the pictures of all these little Jordanian Greek tortoises thrown in a truck bed and clearly rolling and banging after being poached from the desert. I learned that the Princess Alia Foundation regularly gets confiscated tortoises and returns them to the desert. I went through a couple of months of daily wondering if today was the day they would die. They were zombie tortoises. They were skittish, they were shy, they would not eat. Read all I could, applied the advise that experts here had given others: soaking, baby food soaks, bird vitamin soaks, higher temperatures ... all.of.it. Applies it daily, Checked things every few hours. Wished for the best. Mentally prepared for the worst, like death. They finally came around from their stupor, from being so scared and shell shocked. I learned that is called acclimating. I learned that it is harder with wild caught tortoises. I learned that I was a beginner tortoise keeper and that doing the wild caught thing was best left for experts. Duh. I learned that the hard way.
I love my two geeky Greeks who made a geek out of me and I have no regrets for being a big dummy and getting them from a big box place-o-business with nary a clue. It was not easy but it has been worth it. I wanted to do right by my two little travellers and I am glad they put me through hell now. That's my bit.
And to answer your question, now that I have captive bred babies, leopards, to compare my experience to, I have to say, much more easy peasy from the get go. What a difference. So the better way is indeed from a breeder. But if your heart pulls like mine did that day, just be prepared and go seriously to bat for these poor animals. They do deserve better since being taken from their native land was not exactly nice, nor cool, nor morale. I am guilty of buying but I have no regrets.
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We would all PREFER to buy from a breeder. The benefits are endless.
But I'm not totally against buying from a chain store. Of course the conditions at chain stores are usually terrible, but even if every single TFO member refused to buy from chain stores forever they would still sell tortoises.
So although its a worthy thought to want to not buy there in hopes that it helps prevent future stocking of tortoises , the truth is its a futile effort . They will always be plenty of uneducated tortoise buyers to keep the sales going.
So in my opinion, if you see a tortoise you want to buy for whatever reason , just buy it. You're not hurting anyone by buying it. And you're surely not hurting petco/petsmart by not buying it. Someone uneducated will come along and buy that poor tortoise and prolong its terrible conditions. Better you have it then them.
In my opinion
But I'm not totally against buying from a chain store. Of course the conditions at chain stores are usually terrible, but even if every single TFO member refused to buy from chain stores forever they would still sell tortoises.
So although its a worthy thought to want to not buy there in hopes that it helps prevent future stocking of tortoises , the truth is its a futile effort . They will always be plenty of uneducated tortoise buyers to keep the sales going.
So in my opinion, if you see a tortoise you want to buy for whatever reason , just buy it. You're not hurting anyone by buying it. And you're surely not hurting petco/petsmart by not buying it. Someone uneducated will come along and buy that poor tortoise and prolong its terrible conditions. Better you have it then them.
In my opinion
Guys yes, I know we would all preferably buy from breeders only because we know they would be healthy but my point is there are gonna be times when we see a poor little baby and want to help them out of their situation. Just like when some see a helpless dog or puppy they wanna help. It's the empathy in all of us. You wanna give a being a better life even if you know it's gonna be hard.
anm1221 said:
Agree. And that is when you follow your heart. Even if it might seem like you are a glutten for punishment. But if you follow your heart, you best follow through with the responsibility of doing much more than 100% for the sake of what you took on. You have to go the distance, no fail.
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Enabling "the man" by spending money in their store perpetuates the issues more. However being a soft hearted soul I too would have an issue looking into seeing an animal in distress and then wanting to buy it to get out of the situation, so I can relate there. However even when I knew nothing at all, (not that I know all that much now either), I still had the presence of mind to purchase my Tortellini from a breeder. My past experiences with dogs and cats told me don't get from the store get directly from the source, no questions asked.
On a side note I do frequent my local Petsmart for a lot of different things. Everytime I walk past the reptile section I do say to myself, wow they really do take care of their animals here. I have heard a lot of horror stories, I guess I'm just lucky to have a well run store happened to be the one I frequent.
On a side note I do frequent my local Petsmart for a lot of different things. Everytime I walk past the reptile section I do say to myself, wow they really do take care of their animals here. I have heard a lot of horror stories, I guess I'm just lucky to have a well run store happened to be the one I frequent.
I totally agree with you TommyZ about enabling the situation on a higher level, but I justified my evil ways this way: I learned that there were Greek tortoises in the world, I learned about this forum, I learned about the sin I had perpetuated and I learned that I had to do what ever it takes to make sure my two little Greekers have a better rest of their lives. Like in a balls to the wall kinda way. And my Greeks were not dismal looking, nor pitiful. I got them because they were a beautiful golden yellow color and I could not resist how pretty they were. And yep, they were the bane of my existence for two months, until they finally came around and acted like they wanted to live again. But I understand what you mean, like buying pets that come from puppy mills. So right about that being so wrong.
anm1221 said:
Not the same thing. When I help a helpless puppy or dog I am not giving a financial reward to the person who inflicted the situation upon the dog, and I'm not helping that person put more dogs in that situation.
diamondbp said:
This is terrible logic and highly immoral too. Just because other ignorant people will likely come along and do something is no reason for YOU or anyone else to KNOWINGLY do something that is harmful to animals.
If a place is housing them incorrectly a reason should not buy from there, tell them why, and make an effort to improve things.
If your local store is like Tommy Zs or my local Petco which is run by a friend of mine, then I have no problem with buy from them. The animals have a proper substrate and temps, they have water and get soaked and they are fed a proper diet. Different species are housed separately too. Yes the enclosures are too small, but they are only intended to be there for a short time.
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So Tom if every TFO member vows not to ever buy from a chain store that will stop the sale of tortoises there?? I think not. I'm certain sales will continue.
I'd like you to explain how my logic is wrong instead of just saying its terrible logic.
The "highly immoral" comment was a bit much. Helping out a tortoise in need is never "highly immoral" . Like I said before, better you or a educated owner have that tortoise than an uneducated owner.
Again buying from a breeder is highly preferred, but I would never tell someone who buys one from a chain store that they are doing something "immoral".
I'd like you to explain how my logic is wrong instead of just saying its terrible logic.
The "highly immoral" comment was a bit much. Helping out a tortoise in need is never "highly immoral" . Like I said before, better you or a educated owner have that tortoise than an uneducated owner.
Again buying from a breeder is highly preferred, but I would never tell someone who buys one from a chain store that they are doing something "immoral".
diamondbp said:
Because we cannot stop a problem is not a reason to knowingly, willingly contribute to it. You KNOW they will use the money you give them to buy ever more tortoises to put in that cage after you take that one home.
I don't think I need to go into detail to explain how those tortoises get over here and what the rate of attrition is, do I? And the issue here is the mistreatment of these animals while they await sale at the retail establishment. If you are knowingly, purposefully rewarding the bad behavior of these pet stores who house and care for them incorrectly, yes, I DO consider that immoral. If you were an ignorant and uneducated member of the general public when it came to housing these tortoises (YOU are not), I would find the mistake of paying for one more forgivable, simply because you have no way of knowing any better. But to encourage people on a forum full of people who DO know better to buy these mistreated animals, giving a profit to the sellers, is reprehensible in my opinion.
I agree with you that it would be better for that individual tortoise to go to a better owner, but not at the price of MORE tortoises coming to take its place in that same sub-standard care. The harsh but true bottom line is that, if the tortoises that they have now just sit there and never sell, those stores will never buy another one to sell. If we eliminate the demand, there will be no supply. Because we alone cannot completely eliminate the demand is NOT a reason to just go ahead reward the wrong-doers.
Agree with Tom completely.
I do not patronize stores that sell puppies, at all. Ever. Won't walk in the door. If I need a pet store (rarely), I will drive 20 miles out of my way to go to one that does not sell pups, and have many times. I feel that strongly against puppy mills.
That usually involves finding a Petco or Petsmart. We now have a small new Petco within 6 miles, thankfully. And they do not sell torts. They do sell turtles, but they seem well cared for. I have never seen a tort for sale at any Petco/Petsmart around here. Lots of lizards though. And a few snakes.
I do not patronize stores that sell puppies, at all. Ever. Won't walk in the door. If I need a pet store (rarely), I will drive 20 miles out of my way to go to one that does not sell pups, and have many times. I feel that strongly against puppy mills.
That usually involves finding a Petco or Petsmart. We now have a small new Petco within 6 miles, thankfully. And they do not sell torts. They do sell turtles, but they seem well cared for. I have never seen a tort for sale at any Petco/Petsmart around here. Lots of lizards though. And a few snakes.
Well said Tom. When I was first looking into getting a tortoise I was going to get a Greek from petsmart. But I'm not the "shoot first and ask questions later" type of person so I did research. And learned that their torts are wild caught. This broke my heart. I refuse to participate in that sort of practice. So back to the search I went. And stumbled onto leopard tortoises at a reptile expo and fell in love. found a breeder, and continued to research. And that lead me here. What I don't understand is with the amount of reptile breeders out there why they don't switch over.
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