Wild vs Pet

[smarch]

I understand tortoises aren't really domesticated like a dog is, but I think many of the ones that live with us are more than just a wild animal relying on instinct.

We say tortoises come to you when they hear you because you are the "food god" and they want food. Yet many times they can even have food and this still happens. And its kind of against instinct to go up to a giant even if it gives food is it not?

Tortoises who let you scratch their head or chin or shell, there's nothing instinct about that, yet many like it and come to you for it (or in my case put up with it).

There are so many personable tortoises out there, I know it depends on how they're raised and everything, but Nank is too, I didn't raise him, he grew up wild somewhere overseas in a desert, yet he comes to me, lets me pet him, and is personable.
I genuinely believe many of us who interact with their tortoises as a pet (since I know theres a split in keepers seeing them as wild versus pet, we don't need to get into that I see both sides) have more than just a wild animal that happens to live with them, I believe with being close and interacting with the tortoise that they become a level of domesticated.

Any agreements or disagreements?

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Some folks here spend a considerable amount of time interacting with their tortoises and claim that they are indeed friendly, etc. I sometimes attach a human emotion to the behavior of my tortoises. But, really, It can almost always be linked to an instinctual or mildly learned behavior. I mean, they do come when I call them and even seem to know their names. Though that might be pushing things.

 

[WithLisa]

I have seen many tortoises following their owners around. I'm quite sure that's just instinctual behaviour, not a sign of affection, because most of them also follow strangers, dogs, cars or any other moving thing.
My assumption is that wild tortoises only know two kinds of living things: predators and fellow tortoises. They are scared of possible predators and try to hide. If it's not something scary, they run after it to see if it's either a mating partner or a rival.
Pet tortoises learn not to be scared of humans anymore, so they only show the second behaviour.

 

[Prairie Mom]

I understand tortoises aren't really domesticated like a dog is, but I think many of the ones that live with us are more than just a wild animal relying on instinct.

We say tortoises come to you when they hear you because you are the "food god" and they want food. Yet many times they can even have food and this still happens. And its kind of against instinct to go up to a giant even if it gives food is it not?

Tortoises who let you scratch their head or chin or shell, there's nothing instinct about that, yet many like it and come to you for it (or in my case put up with it).

There are so many personable tortoises out there, I know it depends on how they're raised and everything, but Nank is too, I didn't raise him, he grew up wild somewhere overseas in a desert, yet he comes to me, lets me pet him, and is personable.
I genuinely believe many of us who interact with their tortoises as a pet (since I know theres a split in keepers seeing them as wild versus pet, we don't need to get into that I see both sides) have more than just a wild animal that happens to live with them, I believe with being close and interacting with the tortoise that they become a level of domesticated.

Any agreements or disagreements?

I agree with you, Sarah and I too hope to build a way of interacting with my tortoise that goes further than food goddess. I hope that my tortoise will learn to trust that I will keep her safe and even recognize that being near me provides all of her necessities and even enjoyable experiences. --Isn't that what attachment is? a relationship built upon trust/safety and needs being met? I think there is truth in everything that has been posted so far. There are many wise people on this forum. Tortoises are definitely wild animals, but even in my small set of experiences rehabbing wild animals, there is a danger of the wild animals becoming imprinted and then even domesticated. -I have this situation in my own home. Some have been successfully released, but one will have to stay with us forever. I sincerely HOPE my sulcata becomes IMPRINTED LET'S BE A BIG TORTOISE FAMILY!!!

 

[wellington]

I don't really know. What I do know, is however I want to think of them, is what I will think. What ever makes you feel good about it, then think it. If they can train Dolphins, monkeys, etc, why not tortoises.

 

[Tom]

Just because they become tame, habituated, trained and desensitized doesn't mean they are not a wild animal with wild instincts. Any one of our tortoises, even the CB ones, would survive and do just fine if released into the wild in their native area in a suitable spot.

They have a positive association with us due to the food thing. Add to that with them desensitizing to our movements and size. Then throw in their natural curiosity, and you end up with a pretty nice pet, which is why we all like them. Doesn't mean they are domesticated. Domestication is a whole 'nother thing.

Lots of wild animals make nice pets. Baboons are awesome if handled correctly. I work with a king vulture that is the coolest bird ever. I have pictures of my daughter sitting on a young white rhino that belongs to a friend of mine. We feed carrots to the same friend's elephants. None of this means they are not wild animals.

Want to see how domesticated your pet tortoise is? Put another male tortoise in with him this spring and see what happens.

 

[motero]

I don't know if they are tame or wild, but they are all captive bred. The personalities vary greatly among my tortoises, Most are just chill and go with the flow, aren't scared of people and come looking to see if you have food. Two of them act like you are going to eat them every time they see you. And one will look for people to interact with she will leave her favorite food, hide spot, borrow, and follow you around like a loving puppy dog. You can guess who is every ones favorite.

 

[stojanovski92113]

I read in this book I have on Redfoots that tortoises recognize humans faces?! Well I do know in fact that if my husband walks in the tortoise room 95% of the time they don't move or nudge, nothing!! I've snuck to observe many times!! But...when I walk in the room, 95% of the time they will slowly turn around & head towards my direction. Even if they have food. I think maybe they might realize I'm the "food God" & they are hoping that I will add bananas or mazuri to their veggies or something. I try to sneak in the room so I don't disturb them. My husband & I have joked around that my torts don't care for him. But I'm curious if they really do recognize different humans! When I sit outside in the summer with my tortoises, my largest redfoot always comes to me and hides between my legs for a short period & I just scratch & give her head rubs. The other tortoises don't come to me as much as the big one does. Also, if other people are outside, she will also go by them, maybe looking for scratches & head rubs. My other torts could care less. I guess I'm just saying that my largest redfoot is more social than the other torts I have. My smallest redfoot is pretty social too I suppose. But I have no clue on the life of my tortoises before I got them. I often wonder....

 

[ascott]

I understand tortoises aren't really domesticated like a dog is, but I think many of the ones that live with us are more than just a wild animal relying on instinct.

We say tortoises come to you when they hear you because you are the "food god" and they want food. Yet many times they can even have food and this still happens. And its kind of against instinct to go up to a giant even if it gives food is it not?

Tortoises who let you scratch their head or chin or shell, there's nothing instinct about that, yet many like it and come to you for it (or in my case put up with it).

There are so many personable tortoises out there, I know it depends on how they're raised and everything, but Nank is too, I didn't raise him, he grew up wild somewhere overseas in a desert, yet he comes to me, lets me pet him, and is personable.
I genuinely believe many of us who interact with their tortoises as a pet (since I know theres a split in keepers seeing them as wild versus pet, we don't need to get into that I see both sides) have more than just a wild animal that happens to live with them, I believe with being close and interacting with the tortoise that they become a level of domesticated.

Any agreements or disagreements?

Forced captive animals learn to survive, nothing more-- nothing less.....if they cozy up to the food provider, they get more food....one plus one kinda thing....then again, there is no way I can be convinced that a wild animal would opt to be a forced captive if ever given the genuine choice...but hey, once in the cage--why not make the best of it, what other choice does a wild animal have but to strive to survive with the hope of a chance at the wild....and when that does not work---pace...pace...pace....

 

[Prairie Mom]

I read in this book I have on Redfoots that tortoises recognize humans faces?! Well I do know in fact that if my husband walks in the tortoise room 95% of the time they don't move or nudge, nothing!! I've snuck to observe many times!! But...when I walk in the room, 95% of the time they will slowly turn around & head towards my direction. Even if they have food. I think maybe they might realize I'm the "food God" & they are hoping that I will add bananas or mazuri to their veggies or something. I try to sneak in the room so I don't disturb them. My husband & I have joked around that my torts don't care for him. But I'm curious if they really do recognize different humans! When I sit outside in the summer with my tortoises, my largest redfoot always comes to me and hides between my legs for a short period & I just scratch & give her head rubs. The other tortoises don't come to me as much as the big one does. Also, if other people are outside, she will also go by them, maybe looking for scratches & head rubs. My other torts could care less. I guess I'm just saying that my largest redfoot is more social than the other torts I have. My smallest redfoot is pretty social too I suppose. But I have no clue on the life of my tortoises before I got them. I often wonder....

It's become really obvious in my family that my tortoise recognizes us. She is really comfortable with some of my children, other's she avoids. All of my children are extremely well behaved and closely monitored with my animals. It really appears that she has preferences for certain people in my family.

 

[stojanovski92113]

It's become really obvious in my family that my tortoise recognizes us. She is really comfortable with some of my children, other's she avoids. All of my children are extremely well behaved and closely monitored with my animals. It really appears that she has preferences for certain people in my family.

Ok so I'm not alone

 

[Prairie Mom]

I really enjoyed reading this thread. All views offered up something for me think about and even ask myself further questions that I'll have to spend some time dwelling on from time to time. Good stuff.

 

[FLINTUS]

Just because they become tame, habituated, trained and desensitized doesn't mean they are not a wild animal with wild instincts. Any one of our tortoises, even the CB ones, would survive and do just fine if released into the wild in their native area in a suitable spot.

They have a positive association with us due to the food thing. Add to that with them desensitizing to our movements and size. Then throw in their natural curiosity, and you end up with a pretty nice pet, which is why we all like them. Doesn't mean they are domesticated. Domestication is a whole 'nother thing.

Lots of wild animals make nice pets. Baboons are awesome if handled correctly. I work with a king vulture that is the coolest bird ever. I have pictures of my daughter sitting on a young white rhino that belongs to a friend of mine. We feed carrots to the same friend's elephants. None of this means they are not wild animals.

Want to see how domesticated your pet tortoise is? Put another male tortoise in with him this spring and see what happens.

I agree with the positive association, completely disagree with having wild mammals as pets, but that's another argument...
However, the statement in bold was what I wished to pick up on. V.generalised, especially from yourself, and we've seen a number of times how hard it is for tortoises from captivity to be released into the wild. It takes a lot of in-situ breeding to get the instincts back, look at what the ACI is doing at the moment, as well as the BCG -who I don't like as an organisation-sponsored release in India I think it was of some species of turtle, not tortoise.

 

[smarch]

Forced captive animals learn to survive, nothing more-- nothing less.....if they cozy up to the food provider, they get more food....one plus one kinda thing....then again, there is no way I can be convinced that a wild animal would opt to be a forced captive if ever given the genuine choice...but hey, once in the cage--why not make the best of it, what other choice does a wild animal have but to strive to survive with the hope of a chance at the wild....and when that does not work---pace...pace...pace....

Oh I guarantee they would never choose to be captive. Although I think that once they are captive they give up on the idea of the wild after a certain point, the captivity becomes the new real, and at the same time most keepers try hard to replicate natural conditions so minus the humans who keep popping up and leaving food on a silver platter many may not even experience much difference.

 

[WithLisa]

most keepers try hard to replicate natural conditions so minus the humans who keep popping up and leaving food on a silver platter many may not even experience much difference.

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of pet tortoises never reach maturity because of wrong husbandry. Very few are lucky enough to live in a large outdoor enclosure with natural conditions...

 

[ascott]

Although I think that once they are captive they give up on the idea of the wild after a certain point, the captivity becomes the new real,

You and I will get along disagreeing with one another on this ....I believe an animal learns to "survive" in any given situation....and that does not equate to accepting the situation.....

 

[ZEROPILOT]

It's become really obvious in my family that my tortoise recognizes us. She is really comfortable with some of my children, other's she avoids. All of my children are extremely well behaved and closely monitored with my animals. It really appears that she has preferences for certain people in my family.

You are absolutely correct. My tortoises clearly prefer my wife to myself. They actually run towards her. Me, they just look at me and then look away. (Unless I have food.) She is however, better looking than I am....

 

[Prairie Mom]

You are absolutely correct. My tortoises clearly prefer my wife to myself. They actually run towards her. Me, they just look at me and then look away. (Unless I have food.) She is however, better looking than I am....

You're always so funny! I hope your wife gets to read some of your posts!

 

[Tom]

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of pet tortoises never reach maturity because of wrong husbandry. Very few are lucky enough to live in a large outdoor enclosure with natural conditions...

This has not been my experience at all. The vast majority do grow up and reach maturity, despite some people providing the "wrong" husbandry. Do the vast majority of pet tortoises in Austria die in their first few years? I was not aware of such a problem. Most of the ones here survive.

 

[Tom]

I see a whole lot of speculation about how tortoises "feel" and a whole lot of assuming they are using rational thought, emotions and deductive reasoning techniques.

Does anyone here really think a tortoise sits and ponders the pros and cons of its captive life vs. a life in the wild?

They are simple creatures. They have certain environmental and nutritional needs that must be met. Bigger and better designed enclosures and diets allow them to better meet these needs, but does someone think their tortoise is "happy"? They are not even smart enough to seek out a known warm area on a cold night in some cases. Put an African Monkey in a cold cage and you better believe it will find and be in that warm spot the first night and every night. Put a tortoise in the same cage and it will go sleep in whatever corner is most convenient, and let itself freeze to death. There is not a lot of logic and reasoning going on in those tortoise heads people.