Please don't support pet stores that sell wild-caught torts!

[Jacqui]

My stores happen to have folks with lots of knowledge of tortoises and experience with them. I have a higher expectation from Vets, then I do a pet store person, yet even many Vets are clueless about tortoises. (notice I said some, there are some awesome tortoise Vets out there, including a few who visit here). Some humans just do not have value for animals or for some it is only certain animals that hold value. Even with good advise, a person will only retain so much of it and that's just the folks who do want to learn.

Tortoise folks tend to not be outgoing and public. For instance dog folks are always giving demonstrations every where. I think tortoise folks need to do more out reach programs for a lack of a better term and get information out there.

I also have to give kudos to these chains stores atleast in my personal experience for questioning my knowledge of a tortoise I was going to buy from them and what it's needs were. (this has happened to me in NE, UT and MO and across several years) Also a none chain store in Vegas. That is something I have never had a breeder yet do.

---

So how do you tell what is "reliable" or correct information? You can take the same type of tortoise and raise it completely different, yet both have good results. How I care for my tortoises here is not for instance how Tom cares for his. Where you live does create a factor.

 

[laramill]

Yes-- where you live is a HUGE factor! I would love to live in Arizona or New Mexico or one of those lovely warm places... I find it really hard here. Our snow is still thigh-high and we're supposed to get more this week. (enough already-- really) I feel like I'll be better at it as time goes by, but it takes a lot of forethought, planning, and prep to be any good at this during the winter... and the summer is hot and humid... the plants get powdery mildew pretty regularly (from the humidity)... and so I keep wondering how I will fare there, too, in my care-taking.

I kind of chuckled when I read "Dog folks are always giving demonstrations everywhere" I know it's true though, but it sounded funny to me.

I would love to see "tortoise demonstrations" of some sort, but I can't think of how that would work... and just moving the largest ones around has to prove an obstacle... I guess it's not only the "tortoise people" that aren't outgoing and public, a lot of tortoises aren't, either! I mean, a dog tends to thrive on that applause and attention... But probably part of the problem is just that tortoises are kind of a private pet in some ways-- in that they are at your house and tend to stay there-- Where dogs you have to walk, so they are out and about and seeing folks... (Beside that, people just do not KNOW tortoises. When I mention to people that we took in a tortoise, they automatically get a vision of a sulcata, and then say "Wow! How much does it weigh?" and I say "ah... 'bout 14 ounces" and then I get a confused look.)

As far as how I tell good information-- I try to check as many different sources as I can. I try to consider where they got their information/experience and what the motive for providing it was... and then I cross my fingers.

(There is a ton of conflicting though-- For example-- I've read about substrate at several--- many--- different sites-- and I knew not to use repti-bark, pellets, or mulch-- But it seemed that there was a consensus that soaked coir and playsand is the way to go, in a 50/50 mix. So I bought my stuff, and then began to mix, and then it dawned on me-- 50/50 by volume, or by weight? Because that makes quite a difference. Well, it took me hours to find an answer on that, and finally went by weight... And the next day or so afterward, I read (on this site)- nope, not right-- NO SAND. While I couldn't find a ton on that elsewhere specifically (saying "no sand"), I read about intestinal blockage and the torts digestive system, and etc, etc-- and it sure made sense not to use sand... Sooooo-- my garden got a nice coir/sand additive, and I remixed a new batch of coir with soil. So-- just goes to show you, even if you read a ton, and then look for even more detail-- you can be misled. Now I've read a few opinions that said not to use coir, either! Just go with the soil... so I'm watching that whole debate to see what can be made of it...)

 

[ascott]

There are two types of belief systems that I have encountered in my life thus far;

Folks who believe they are entitled to, and those
Folks who believe they are part of....period.

The two very rarely ever change their core beliefs--I am not here to waiver anyone from one place to the other....there was a thread started here, I, along with others, have offered up my opinion---and that has not changed ....

Just because we can, does not mean we should.

 

[Jacqui]

(There is a ton of conflicting though-- For example-- I've read about substrate at several---

I use the sand and coir myself. The sand is less then 20%. I find, if you are taking proper care of your tortoise and it is healthy and hydrated, sand is not a problem. Sand is in fact a part of the make up of good soil. Every substrate has it's own potential issues. This just happens to be a forum, which has many vocal anti sand folks in it. Each forum and site has it's own way they seem to push for and you can certainly do it and do tortoise care differently and still see good results.

With the demonstartions, perhaps I should have used the word talks. I use to be very active in a reptile cllub and gave lots of talks with my turtles and tortoises. Schools, a zoo day thing, pet stores, ect.., You just use tortoise which are more people friendly and don't mind travel. My favorite one at the time was an adult male yellowfoot.

 

[Saleama]

In my opinion, this is all circle of life stuff. The problem is, the arrogance of human nature has completly covered up the FACT that we are part of the animal kingdom. Every animal on this planet now, in the past and any in the future has, does and will use the other animals around it for many things including food, shelter and cover. From the tiniest bacteria to the largest creature on the Earth, we all use others. There is no exception to this. Do humans exploit beyond need? That is debatable. Some think so, others are sure of it and still others think not. There are many opinions out there and I have to say, none of them matter. And by that I mean, the truth matters 100%, ACTION matters 100%, how I or any others feel about it does not, accepting, of course, unless those feelings result in action. Are there more trees on the planet because of human intervention than there were 100 years ago? Maybe, probably. We fight fires that used to go unchecked and we plant trees as a crop now so there is that. Are dogs and cats and horses better off being domesticated than left on there own? I don't know the answer but I can tell you that my dogs seem to me much happier going to their water and food dish than the wild dogs on Discovery that have to eat rotten dead animals or try to catch rats and other small animals with varying success. And what about the rat and his right to not be exploited by the wild dog?
I bought one of my Russian girls at Petsmart and if they have their bi-annual sale of Torts soon I will buy all three of the females at my local Petco where I buy all my crickets for my box turtles. I can also report that there are no fewer than 5 petsmarts and 3 petco's that house their Torts just a little better because I do go to them and look at their animals and I do say something if I see stuff being done wrong and not a single one of these places has ignored me. Maybe I am lucky? Maybe the animals in these stores are lucky to have reptile owners work their section? I don't know. But I do know that I will buy from these stores.
I will say that I do admire TC's stance in that she is willing to take one for a cause that she believes in. I admire anybody willing to make such a stand whether I believe in their cause or their method.

 

[Tom]

There are two types of belief systems that I have encountered in my life thus far;

Folks who believe they are entitled to, and those
Folks who believe they are part of....period.

The two very rarely ever change their core beliefs--I am not here to waiver anyone from one place to the other....there was a thread started here, I, along with others, have offered up my opinion---and that has not changed ....

Just because we can, does not mean we should.

Well now you have encountered a third type, because I subscribe to BOTH of your scenarios. I absolutely feel entitled to do what I need to do to survive, but I am also acutely aware that I am a very small part of a very big system, and that my actions can have a profound effect on that system.

 

[ascott]

I am also acutely aware that I am a very small part of a very big system, and that my actions can have a profound effect on that system.

Again, in controlled sustainable numbers, I have no problem with this. This is OUR planet, OUR animals, and there is no reason we can't use these resources and space carefully and responsibly. When it is done irresponsibly and recklessly, I am right there with you standing against it.

Tom,

I still believe there are only two types...there truly is no middle ground on this subject (in my opinion, and that is all that I have any true say over).

Controlled sustainable numbers, we simply are not qualified in any way to take it upon ourselves to decide this.
This is OUR planet, OUR animals, I disagree and this just furthers my opinion that humans have no more right than an other creature--we just "think" we do.
Carefully and responsibly, unfortunately we are not qualified to go by any one agreed upon scale for these two words to be uniform.

Now Tom, you and I have beliefs in line on a number of tortoise care behavior...I have said it before and I will surely say it again in the future....I have respect for the information you offer in the housing and care of captive tortoise, you offer great time and good material from which to offer great set ups....however, you know as well as I do we do not see all things the same, and with me that is fine

 

[cdmay]

Ascott wrote this in response to Tom:
"This is OUR planet, OUR animals, I disagree and this just furthers my opinion that humans have no more right than an other creature--we just "think" we do."


Ascott, I'm glad you feel strongly about your beliefs. I don't agree with you (I find that I agree completely with Tom, who is my Hero-For-The-Day) but I respect your position.
But I do have one question regarding your statement that we have no more right than any other creature...suppose you and your family were in the woods and a large bear burst out of the bushes and ate your 1.0.0 Son--right in front of you. Would you then simply walk home, (broken-hearted, of course) and say the bear had every right to eat your son? Or would you call the proper authorities and have that bear tracked down and killed?

 

[ascott]

Ascott, I'm glad you feel strongly about your beliefs. I don't agree with you (I find that I agree completely with Tom, who is my Hero-For-The-Day) but I respect your position.
But I do have one question regarding your statement that we have no more right than any other creature...suppose you and your family were in the woods and a large bear burst out of the bushes and ate your 1.0.0 Son--right in front of you. Would you then simply walk home, (broken-hearted, of course) and say the bear had every right to eat your son? Or would you call the proper authorities and have that bear tracked down and killed?

I find it interesting that many folks want to use their family for a point they feverishly try to make....I on the other hand do not appreciate you putting those vibes out in the world using my son....I would not ever do this to you nor anyone....

I am an adult and therefore I would respond in this way. If I were dumb enough to take my young son into the forrest/woods/wild (do any of those work for you?) where bears reside without a way to protect he and myself---you can bet your *** I would be what would come between my son being killed or not....trust me. There would be no need for authorities...not for me anyways....

Now, I choose carefully where we go. I respect the fact that when an animal strikes out ---especially to consume, it is not in any way a personal attack, you see---normally, usually, more often than not---humans are the primary animal that kills for the fun of it and for very personal reasons...kinda like how you picked my son as the topic for your "dramatic" moment....enjoy?

 

[cdmay]

Ascott, I'm glad you feel strongly about your beliefs. I don't agree with you (I find that I agree completely with Tom, who is my Hero-For-The-Day) but I respect your position.
But I do have one question regarding your statement that we have no more right than any other creature...suppose you and your family were in the woods and a large bear burst out of the bushes and ate your 1.0.0 Son--right in front of you. Would you then simply walk home, (broken-hearted, of course) and say the bear had every right to eat your son? Or would you call the proper authorities and have that bear tracked down and killed?

I find it interesting that many folks want to use their family for a point they feverishly try to make....I on the other hand do not appreciate you putting those vibes out in the world using my son....I would not ever do this to you nor anyone....

I am an adult and therefore I would respond in this way. If I were dumb enough to take my young son into the forrest/woods/wild (do any of those work for you?) where bears reside without a way to protect he and myself---you can bet your *** I would be what would come between my son being killed or not....trust me. There would be no need for authorities...not for me anyways....

Now, I choose carefully where we go. I respect the fact that when an animal strikes out ---especially to consume, it is not in any way a personal attack, you see---normally, usually, more often than not---humans are the primary animal that kills for the fun of it and for very personal reasons...kinda like how you picked my son as the topic for your "dramatic" moment....enjoy?

Whoa Ascott! Calm down, eh?!
I was only using an illustration as a way of pointing out what I consider to be a fallacy of many who take the view that humans and animals are all of equal value. Typically people with this view will still use a mouse trap when their home is invaded by rodents, or will slap a mosquito on their arm, or will have their home fumigated when termites are eating it.
The bear eating a child illustration (holy crap I wasn't really suggesting that your 1.0.0 son get eaten!) was meant as a way of showing that most likely, you would have the offending animal put down and thus negating the 'we are all the same' belief.

I have found that when you really get down to the brass tacks, most people who take the feel good stance that people and animals are equal and have an equal right to freedom-- and the pursuit of happiness, really only apply this concept when it comes to pets. In this case wild caught tortoises. It's easy to get on a soapbox and make this idealistic stance and I guess it makes you feel noble. But it is a narrow and selfish view.

Believe it or not, I too find much of the animal trade quite nauseating and I wish it were better policed. I was around in the bad old days and my uncle even worked for Bill Chase in Miami during the 60's. Boy did he have some horror stories.
I used to visit all of the big importers in Miami on a weekly basis from the early 70's to the 90's and while things are far, far better now than before, there is still room for improvement as you have pointed out.
In my opinion any importer or animal dealer found housing their animals in sub-standard conditions should get fined, or put in jail-- and for sure get their licenses yanked permanently. If these offenders are ever caught with wild animals again they should get mandatory jail time. Period.
You see I have zero tolerance for animal abuse in any form. And for the record, I can't stand the idea of birds in cages, or birds with clipped wings. I also hate trophy hunting and 'sport fishing'... but this is just me.

But having said that I have no problem with certain numbers of wild animals being (again, tortoises) collected for the 'pet trade'. Mind you, I'm not saying that ALL turtles and tortoises are OK for this, but most probably are.

Can't speak for Tom or others, but I would bet that their beef is the same as mine---remember the old saying about farmers, "Don't complain about the farmer with your mouth full" ? I would say the same thing to all of the people on this forum who deride keepers who have wild caught tortoises. Don't complain about me while you are caring for your captive bred tortoise. I might have been the one who hatched it for you.

 

[ascott]

I have found that when you really get down to the brass tacks, most people who take the feel good stance that people and animals are equal and have an equal right to freedom--

I don't have the desire for "the feel good stance". I feel this way because-- to me there is no other way, it is not an option---it is what drives me on a variety of levels. It just is who I am.

and the pursuit of happiness, really only apply this concept when it comes to pets.

I don't know that I would refer to a wild animal pursuing "happiness", but rather not being raped of their right to remain a wild animal...simply because a human thinks it is alright for us to decide so....

get on a soapbox and make this idealistic stance and I guess it makes you feel noble. But it is a narrow and selfish view.

I believe some posts back, I clearly expressed that I make no effort to waiver a persons belief so it becomes in line with mine....I still make no effort to do that, I simply shared my personal feeling/opinion. Just as you have. I have no need nor desire to "get on a soapbox" nor do I feel noble for my beliefs, some days I am very disappointed actually with the behavior of alot of our species --noble is not a word that I would reach for....... I simply believe that we humans, another species on this planet, are not qualified to make the vast choices we take upon ourselves to do, with little regard for anything but our own satisfaction ....we take no real regard to the damage we may be setting in motion, this to me is really what is selfish and shows how narrow minded this way of behavior truly is.

You are entitled, as is everyone else, to express, own, nurture the beliefs that you have...as am I.

 

[cdmay]

I have found that when you really get down to the brass tacks, most people who take the feel good stance that people and animals are equal and have an equal right to freedom--

I don't have the desire for "the feel good stance". I feel this way because-- to me there is no other way, it is not an option---it is what drives me on a variety of levels. It just is who I am.

and the pursuit of happiness, really only apply this concept when it comes to pets.

I don't know that I would refer to a wild animal pursuing "happiness", but rather not being raped of their right to remain a wild animal...simply because a human thinks it is alright for us to decide so....

get on a soapbox and make this idealistic stance and I guess it makes you feel noble. But it is a narrow and selfish view.

I believe some posts back, I clearly expressed that I make no effort to waiver a persons belief so it becomes in line with mine....I still make no effort to do that, I simply shared my personal feeling/opinion. Just as you have. I have no need nor desire to "get on a soapbox" nor do I feel noble for my beliefs, some days I am very disappointed actually with the behavior of alot of our species --noble is not a word that I would reach for....... I simply believe that we humans, another species on this planet, are not qualified to make the vast choices we take upon ourselves to do, with little regard for anything but our own satisfaction ....we take no real regard to the damage we may be setting in motion, this to me is really what is selfish and shows how narrow minded this way of behavior truly is.

You are entitled, as is everyone else, to express, own, nurture the beliefs that you have...as am I.

Fair enough. I do agree with you at some level about being who you are too.
Please keep in mind that my comments (as in the one about the bear) are not directed at you personally, but rather people who take a stand similar to yours but who may be even more extreme their views.
It is my assumption that many others besides you and I will read our exchange of thoughts, and much of what I say is geared toward them.


Like I said above, by and large Tom has expressed my feelings quite well.

 

[Tom]

I have been sent some info and pics from an importer friend about how it REALLY happens. It seems pertinent to this discussion and I would like to post it here.

Laramill, may I post this info here on your thread, or would you prefer that I start a new thread elsewhere?

 

[Yvonne G]

Not all importers are alike, Tom. Someone like Tyler who imports on a small scale probably doesn't have the same conditions as the big importer. I used to go to SoCal and visit the big importers/wholesalers, and believe me, those tortoises were not kept in good conditions. They were piled up on top of each other and covered in feces with sick and dying tortoises all over the place.

 

[DaveTheLeo]

Now while i agree wilds should not be caught and sold i disagree with you i happen to know from this part of scotland all the tortoise have been breed from the one guy and he sells the hatchlings ( after a certain size ) to all the pet stores around here . It may or may not be the case from where you are located but here i can 100% say i know where they are from and its not the wild

 

[EricIvins]

Oh hey, I'm one of those evil Importers that feeds his family of the backs of Tortoises and other animals. I have plenty of unbiased advice and opinions about the trade, and some pictures too. Not a lot though. I do have to keep some things to myself...

 

[Arnold_rules]

Oh hey, I'm one of those evil Importers that feeds his family of the backs of Tortoises and other animals. I have plenty of unbiased advice and opinions about the trade, and some pictures too. Not a lot though. I do have to keep some things to myself...

No-No, I see the Death Star approaching and it is filled with Tortoises......Ah run in terror.

I have kept out of this debate, ie don't support/buy from the pet store, because it is a heated topic and all, but rather than taking such a fanatical stance, why not try to make it better. In addition to my shelled friend the DT, by the way born in captivity over 50 years ago (known him since hatchling), I also have the reef habit (small portion of the ocean in my living room). I supported fish stores that chose reputable importers or bought from local breeders. Petco was infamous for having very poor habitats for their fish and corals. I got talking to one of the local Petco fish managers and talking about their salt water set up and how they could improve it. The store took the initiative to redo their entire system and starting dealing with better importers and turned their salt water operation around. Now, was it because of me talking to them, doubt it, but the managers did seem very interested in what I had to say.

What does that have to do with tortoises? Nothing, but I know it has been suggested by many members to talk to the store to try to get them to change and may be even offer to help them to change. Let's face it, one person boycotting a big box is not going to change a thing, but if you show initiative, who knows what can happen.

Just my two cents on all this silliness of evil empires and crusading tree huggers. Won't even get into habit destruction as a leading cause of some of the tortoise issues....Oh, wait, that is those darn humans again wanting to grow crops to eat.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Turtles and tortoises have not undergone years and years of human intervention to become domesticated, thus ALL turtles and tortoises are wild animals, not just the wild-caught ones.

The countries of origin USUALLY will put limits on export of animals that are being depleted from the wild.

I don't think pet stores are the problem. The illegal trade is the problem.

"LIKE"

---

http://www.tortoisereserve.org/researchandconservation/Bred_Torts_Body2.html

For anyone who would like to look into it further, this is a very good, researched and cited article on the topic.

For what it's worth Dave Lee has many many wild caught animals. I now that for sure.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

I would like to have my w/c russians produce at a strong enough rate to enable me to sell the hatchlings at wild caught prices.
If you want to put the illegal trade out of business, compete.

 

[T33's Torts]

Re: RE: Please don't support pet stores that sell wild-caught torts!

I would like to have my w/c russians produce at a strong enough rate to enable me to sell the hatchlings at wild caught prices.
If you want to put the illegal trade out of business, compete.

Good plan you've got there.