Why don't we see many russian tortoise hatchlings?

[russian/sulcata/tortoise]

when I'm older I'm going to go around to all the rescues and pick up all the russian torts!

 

[tortadise]

The thing with Russians is that they come from a region of the world that use goes some seriously harsh winters. So they naturally grow an extremely fast rate to a size suitable for proper hibernation. The larger the mass the more likely turtles and tortoises are to survive a hibernation. Most of the imports are very young specimens. They seem large enough to produce but really are not. When I use to breed them the earliest I reveived any fertile ova was when they were kept with me over 9 years. Those were imports around 5". Males obviously maturexh earlier. But females have to e able to develop follicular cycles to produce eggs. Which comes with age in this species not necessarily size. The smallest female I have had lay was almost 8". However this appeared to be a kazahkistani (a larger clad of Russian) males also should mature too. Another speculation on my end is that there are 6 (maybe more I don't know exactly how any) different kinda of Russians. So if the different kinda are trying to be need tha lt may present a more difficult exceptance of fertilization.

 

[dmmj]

low egg production i a factor IMHO.

 

[Yellow Turtle01]

I would like to add however that I would not want to see a overpopulation in the market. Too many animals of any kind is not good, look at the sad situations with dogs and cats in this country.

Like a lot of adult sulcata's.

 

[Yellow Turtle01]

low egg production i a factor IMHO.

Yes, I read abut that, 6 could be a considered a motherload!

 

[smarch]

lol

Yeah I was snacking on chips and slipped

when I'm older I'm going to go around to all the rescues and pick up all the russian torts!

just be prepared to find a lot of male torts needing homes, not saying theyre bad I love my lil guy, but everyone wants the females for breeding or groups and males end up left.

 

[smarch]

Like a lot of adult sulcata's.

Yup and I plan to find a rescue older male and give him a home up here, and he better appreciate it lol since it certainly wont be cheap or easy to make him at home up here in MA but he will be loved and cared for

 

[Yellow Turtle01]

I'm worried about this winter ! Hopefully It;ll stop being so worrysome after a few years of successful (!) 'overwintering'.

 

[smarch]

I'm worried about this winter ! Hopefully It;ll stop being so worrysome after a few years of successful (!) 'overwintering'.

are you overwintering this year?

 

[Yellow Turtle01]

are you overwintering this year?

Not hibernation. I don't hibernate, but what I mean was, I hope both me and Cheerio (miss sulcata) make it through the winter in one piece!

 

[smarch]

Not hibernation. I don't hibernate, but what I mean was, I hope both me and Cheerio (miss sulcata) make it through the winter in one piece!

Yup that will be my problem when I get a sully. I was gonna say keeping Russians awake is easy (lol mine doesn't notice when its winter though!)

 

[Yellow Turtle01]

Yeah, he's just being a lazy thing now! I'm not sure if I want to venture into hibernation
I wonder why? Maybe he's just a go-to tort who likes being active

 

[smarch]

Yeah, he's just being a lazy thing now! I'm not sure if I want to venture into hibernation
I wonder why? Maybe he's just a go-to tort who likes being active

I like to think he just has a bad biological clock and is lucky he has me and no winters not necessarily true but still funny, I think of him as dopey, maybe Russian tort hatchings are so few and far between because Russian Torts are secretly dopey and "forget how" I kid but now I seriously wonder about Nank!

 

[Yellow Turtle01]

Maybe you just keep him warmer and he never notices a couple degrees missing in the night? They are ALL different!

 

[FLINTUS]

I wonder if maybe Europe has more CBs not just because I believe theres a law against the WC trade there right? but also because their native habitat is right there so less is needed to do to be "natural" to them.

I also believe the pet trade itself has something to do with the less in America, they're all so readily available in pet stores in the US that people don't need to look for breeders and babies, in fact I never thought to... well I did briefly but no ones around here so I got "Lazy". I'm also not so quick to jump on condemning the pet trade. I mean yeah its not great what happens but I recall someone making a good point once, the people who catch the wild torts over there often do it for money to feed them and their families and that who's to say if they were stopped they wouldn't go out and catch the torts to eat? I mean yeah they're small but when you're poor and starving a meal is a meal.
That being said Russian hatchlings are holy crap adorable but for me personally I want to adopt rescue ones because of pet store ones being so easy to adopt a lot end up unwanted in several years. I do love pictures though theyre so eeny!!

That's the case with all the other testudo species(as well as radiata and a couple of others I think that are classified as Annex A) but not with Horsfields.
Certainly parts of Europe are similar to the Steppe, but so are a few parts of the US, and like the US, we have a lot of variation in our weather. For instance, Germany and the UK will never get to the max temps in places such as Astana.

 

[biochemnerd808]

Recently ( @biochemnerd808 ) hatched some ADORABLE russian tort babies, and that's actually the first time I've seen a thread about having hatchling russians... Why are they so 'rare'? Are they hard to hatch? Breed (I mean, russian males are aggressive, so usually pairing doesn't happen )? And of course, since russian tort babies are bit 'less common', it affects the WC industry of russian torts, even just CB adults.
So why don't we see many of these adorable little guys?
Thanks

I think this is an excellent (and important!) question to ask. I don't claim to be an expert, as this was actually by first year that my group reproduced. However, I do try to do things purposefully, and I firmly believe that tortoises deserve to THRIVE rather than SURVIVE.

There are a few long-term captive breeders such as e.g. Joe Heinen, who has been successfully producing hatchling RTs for 30ish years. Once @Tom's baby RTs grow up, he will hopefully find himself up to his eyeballs in baby RTs that will help put a dent in the number of tortoises that are imported from the wild.

I think there are multiple other reasons though why here in the US there are fewer RT babies.

For one, it seems that many Americans shy away from hibernating their tortoises. My first laying female was estimated to be 30ish years old when she came to me, so in theory, she should have had no problem laying. However, I had her for 5 years (without hibernating), and then I hibernated her and the others last winter, and BAM! 6 viable eggs and 6 beautiful hatchlings. In the UK, people seem much more comfortable with the concept of hibernation, so that may be one reason why there are more RT babies there.

Second, I think that outdoor space, or at least very ample indoor space, is crucial to Russian tortoise reproduction. This was the second Summer that I kept the RT crew exclusively outside from April through early October, and the females have been very fertile (1 Fall hatch so far, and a bunch more eggs in the incubator). It seems that RTs have the ability not to reproduce if they feel cramped, too.

Third, smaller clutch size and the fact that females have to be fairly old to reproduce makes breeding RTs much less lucrative than breeding some of the more prolific species. From what I hear, most fertile RT females lay clutches of 1-3 eggs, 1-2 times per year. I got REALLY LUCKY to get those 6 eggs all from one female this Spring, and she isn't even very large (though she is supposedly over 30 years old). The time and effort it takes to raise an RT to the point where she is ready to reproduce takes more time, so breeders probably just opt for the easier, faster cash flow of other species.

I don't think that the whole 'European climate is closer to the climate where RTs originate' necessarily holds true. Russian tortoises are incredibly adaptable. Our climate here in the Pacific Northwest is nearly identical to the UK, which brings with it wonderful advantages of year-round weeds (except Dec and Jan), but also has challenges such as LOTS of rain, and the need for greenhouses and possibly supplemental heat. I know keepers who successfully breed their RTs in hot CA or AZ, and I know keepers in Upstate NY who successfully breed their RTs.

Looking at the keepers in the US who are consistently producing healthy RT babies, they keep their tortoises outdoors for as much of the year as weather permits, they hibernate their tortoises (usually a controlled hibernation e.g. in a fridge), and they feed a wide variety of healthy greens.

Proper breeding ratios probably play a role as well - a stressed single female that is paired constantly with a single male may not ever lay fertile eggs. Following the advice of more experienced breeders, I have a ratio of 1:3 or 1:4 (male:female), and that seems to work well.

Though not the showiest of species, I have to admit that Russian tortoises are still my favorites. I hope to help put a tiny dent into the number of wild RTs that are imported into the US by breeding, and I am committed to give the babies who hatch the best start possible so that they can live a long and happy life with their future owners!

I would love to hear other people's thoughts on this.

 

[leigti]

I think this is an excellent (and important!) question to ask. I don't claim to be an expert, as this was actually by first year that my group reproduced. However, I do try to do things purposefully, and I firmly believe that tortoises deserve to THRIVE rather than SURVIVE.

There are a few long-term captive breeders such as e.g. Joe Heinen, who has been successfully producing hatchling RTs for 30ish years. Once @Tom's baby RTs grow up, he will hopefully find himself up to his eyeballs in baby RTs that will help put a dent in the number of tortoises that are imported from the wild.

I think there are multiple other reasons though why here in the US there are fewer RT babies.

For one, it seems that many Americans shy away from hibernating their tortoises. My first laying female was estimated to be 30ish years old when she came to me, so in theory, she should have had no problem laying. However, I had her for 5 years (without hibernating), and then I hibernated her and the others last winter, and BAM! 6 viable eggs and 6 beautiful hatchlings. In the UK, people seem much more comfortable with the concept of hibernation, so that may be one reason why there are more RT babies there.

Second, I think that outdoor space, or at least very ample indoor space, is crucial to Russian tortoise reproduction. This was the second Summer that I kept the RT crew exclusively outside from April through early October, and the females have been very fertile (1 Fall hatch so far, and a bunch more eggs in the incubator). It seems that RTs have the ability not to reproduce if they feel cramped, too.

Third, smaller clutch size and the fact that females have to be fairly old to reproduce makes breeding RTs much less lucrative than breeding some of the more prolific species. From what I hear, most fertile RT females lay clutches of 1-3 eggs, 1-2 times per year. I got REALLY LUCKY to get those 6 eggs all from one female this Spring, and she isn't even very large (though she is supposedly over 30 years old). The time and effort it takes to raise an RT to the point where she is ready to reproduce takes more time, so breeders probably just opt for the easier, faster cash flow of other species.

I don't think that the whole 'European climate is closer to the climate where RTs originate' necessarily holds true. Russian tortoises are incredibly adaptable. Our climate here in the Pacific Northwest is nearly identical to the UK, which brings with it wonderful advantages of year-round weeds (except Dec and Jan), but also has challenges such as LOTS of rain, and the need for greenhouses and possibly supplemental heat. I know keepers who successfully breed their RTs in hot CA or AZ, and I know keepers in Upstate NY who successfully breed their RTs.

Looking at the keepers in the US who are consistently producing healthy RT babies, they keep their tortoises outdoors for as much of the year as weather permits, they hibernate their tortoises (usually a controlled hibernation e.g. in a fridge), and they feed a wide variety of healthy greens.

Proper breeding ratios probably play a role as well - a stressed single female that is paired constantly with a single male may not ever lay fertile eggs. Following the advice of more experienced breeders, I have a ratio of 1:3 or 1:4 (male:female), and that seems to work well.

Though not the showiest of species, I have to admit that Russian tortoises are still my favorites. I hope to help put a tiny dent into the number of wild RTs that are imported into the US by breeding, and I am committed to give the babies who hatch the best start possible so that they can live a long and happy life with their future owners!

I would love to hear other people's thoughts on this.

I agree with everything you said. I am new with tortoises and basically just observing. I think it is actually good in a way that it does take a little more time and effort to breed Russians. And maybe it is also good that they are not the "prettiest" tortoise out there. nobody is going to make a fortune raising Russian tortoises but that means that the people that are doing it do it because they like it and they care about the species, not for a quick buck.

 

[FLINTUS]

I think this is an excellent (and important!) question to ask. I don't claim to be an expert, as this was actually by first year that my group reproduced. However, I do try to do things purposefully, and I firmly believe that tortoises deserve to THRIVE rather than SURVIVE.

There are a few long-term captive breeders such as e.g. Joe Heinen, who has been successfully producing hatchling RTs for 30ish years. Once @Tom's baby RTs grow up, he will hopefully find himself up to his eyeballs in baby RTs that will help put a dent in the number of tortoises that are imported from the wild.

I think there are multiple other reasons though why here in the US there are fewer RT babies.

For one, it seems that many Americans shy away from hibernating their tortoises. My first laying female was estimated to be 30ish years old when she came to me, so in theory, she should have had no problem laying. However, I had her for 5 years (without hibernating), and then I hibernated her and the others last winter, and BAM! 6 viable eggs and 6 beautiful hatchlings. In the UK, people seem much more comfortable with the concept of hibernation, so that may be one reason why there are more RT babies there.

Second, I think that outdoor space, or at least very ample indoor space, is crucial to Russian tortoise reproduction. This was the second Summer that I kept the RT crew exclusively outside from April through early October, and the females have been very fertile (1 Fall hatch so far, and a bunch more eggs in the incubator). It seems that RTs have the ability not to reproduce if they feel cramped, too.

Third, smaller clutch size and the fact that females have to be fairly old to reproduce makes breeding RTs much less lucrative than breeding some of the more prolific species. From what I hear, most fertile RT females lay clutches of 1-3 eggs, 1-2 times per year. I got REALLY LUCKY to get those 6 eggs all from one female this Spring, and she isn't even very large (though she is supposedly over 30 years old). The time and effort it takes to raise an RT to the point where she is ready to reproduce takes more time, so breeders probably just opt for the easier, faster cash flow of other species.

I don't think that the whole 'European climate is closer to the climate where RTs originate' necessarily holds true. Russian tortoises are incredibly adaptable. Our climate here in the Pacific Northwest is nearly identical to the UK, which brings with it wonderful advantages of year-round weeds (except Dec and Jan), but also has challenges such as LOTS of rain, and the need for greenhouses and possibly supplemental heat. I know keepers who successfully breed their RTs in hot CA or AZ, and I know keepers in Upstate NY who successfully breed their RTs.

Looking at the keepers in the US who are consistently producing healthy RT babies, they keep their tortoises outdoors for as much of the year as weather permits, they hibernate their tortoises (usually a controlled hibernation e.g. in a fridge), and they feed a wide variety of healthy greens.

Proper breeding ratios probably play a role as well - a stressed single female that is paired constantly with a single male may not ever lay fertile eggs. Following the advice of more experienced breeders, I have a ratio of 1:3 or 1:4 (male:female), and that seems to work well.

Though not the showiest of species, I have to admit that Russian tortoises are still my favorites. I hope to help put a tiny dent into the number of wild RTs that are imported into the US by breeding, and I am committed to give the babies who hatch the best start possible so that they can live a long and happy life with their future owners!

I would love to hear other people's thoughts on this.

Great post.
I agree with you regarding climate. Also, as you said, hibernation is definitely 'the 80-90% norm' on UK tortoise forums for Russians. Most successful breeders here keep them out March-October, inc. at nights-I think this is a key thing: the lack of change in the surroundings- where they have boxes with some heat if required, and bring them in for a few weeks or so before and after hibernation. Temperatures are not worried about too much, most are happy with the temps down to 5-10 degrees Celsius. And finally, as you said, they tend to keep trios of females with one male.

 

[Delilah1623]

I think part of it is the 4" law.... It's cheaper to pull a 4" turtle from the wild than it is to breed and raise them to 4" to be able to sell them in a pet store. Most people buy tortoises from the pet store as an impulse purchase. They go in, see a cute tortoise that only gets about 6" full grown... why not!

I also think because they are wild caught and tend to be less outgoing than captive bred people get tired of them quickly and to Craigslist they go.

I know the store manager at my local Petco. They sell out of russian tortoises within days of getting them in... yet I have never met a person here with one as a loved pet. I do see them on Craigslist constantly.

A little long winded, but, I think this cycle continues the demand for wild caught russians.

 

[Yellow Turtle01]

I think part of it is the 4" law.... It's cheaper to pull a 4" turtle from the wild than it is to breed and raise them to 4" to be able to sell them in a pet store. Most people buy tortoises from the pet store as an impulse purchase. They go in, see a cute tortoise that only gets about 6" full grown... why not!

I also think because they are wild caught and tend to be less outgoing than captive bred people get tired of them quickly and to Craigslist they go.

I know the store manager at my local Petco. They sell out of russian tortoises within days of getting them in... yet I have never met a person here with one as a loved pet. I do see them on Craigslist constantly.

A little long winded, but, I think this cycle continues the demand for wild caught russians.

I'm a little cofused about that whole 4 inch thing... when I go window shopping (really fun!) for torts and turtles, breeders have many species of babies for sale that are over 4''.
Also, I'm sorry, but I can testify against that. My russian is WC, and he is the boldest and most personable little guy I have ever met, and I would do anything to make him happy and safe. He is my best friend, my lifelong buddy, AND my child all in one (I dunno if that goes to far, but I hardly ever think of him as 'just a pet') and yet I understand he is still a wild animal, and he belongs in the wild... and I love him. Like I would love a family member or a close friend. I love all of my animals, and I understand it is probably a one way relationship, and that's fine! Because I'm going to share the next 80+ years of life with some of them, and I' gonna need all that time, because any sooner, I don't know what I'd do without him. (or anyone else, sorry!)