Testudoresearch said:Let me play Devil's Advocate here and raise a couple of practical questions.
1. It is certainly not the case that those tortoises in the wild are being subjected to 80%+ RH and constant high temperatures (+26C) around the clock and for 365 days a year. They get some wetter, more humid periods, with some extremely arid, dry periods and some moderate periods. There are no constants in the wild. So... why do they allegedly need it in captivity?
They don't NEED it it. They can survive without it. Mine did for nearly two decades. The fact, however, is that they BENEFIT from it and we are able to grow them in a way that looks more natural than if we attempt to grow them dry, as you advocate. I don't find any benefit to inflicting hardships that might be encountered in the wild to my captive tortoise, and I HAVE tired it and it doesn't work.
Testudoresearch said:2. Why is the level of humidity being advised so high? Even in the 'rainy season' air humidity levels are not normally that high for extended periods. Air movements and the warm sun reduce levels very rapidly in those environments.
I disagree with you about rainy season levels in sulcata territory based on the word of a man who has lived there his whole life and been a student of Chelonians for most of that time. Still, I think discussion of wild conditions are pointless to this discussion. None of us live in the wild range of the sulcata, and as you keep harping on wild wild wild, I will continue harping on captivity captivity captivity. Attempting to simulate wild sulcata conditions in indoor enclosures and in outdoor enclosures in some areas, fails.
To answer your question: I advocate those numbers because lower numbers don't work as well. In my initial experiments with the wet routine, I used open topped enclosures and I was only able to maintain the lower levels of humidity, closer to what you recommend. I had humid hides, damp substrate and sprayed the substrate and enclosure several times a day, but I could only maintain 50-70% ambient humidity even with all that effort. I even attempted to humidify the entire room, but my climate is just too dry. The results from those initial experiments were good, and far better than any tortoise I had ever produce as far as carapace smoothness goes, but I felt there was room for improvement, and I felt it could be done with a lot less effort. When I switched to closed chambers I found it easy to maintain higher humidity levels and still have relatively dry substrate. The tortoises that grew in these closed chamber with the consistently higher and easy to maintain humidity simply grew smoother. Even better than my first attempts with the open tops. So 50-70% with a humid hide was good, but 80% with a humid hide is even better and MUCH easier. Further in my initial experiments I housed groups of tortoises together in the same enclosures. They got the same diets, sunning and soaking routines. They ate off the same plates. The individuals that used the humid hide boxes, which were always 96-99% humidity, grew smoother and faster than their clutch mates in the same enclosure on the same diet. This was yet another clue that higher humidity would work better than lower humidity, and another indicator that faster growth is not necessarily bad. This has been repeated in my closed chamber many times with many animals. The ones who stay in the humid hides more grow faster and smoother than their clutch mates that spend more time out in the lower humidity levels. Live and learn.
Testudoresearch said:3. Note what Richard Fife has said. That spraying the carapaces alone appears to produce a similar result to the use of humid hides. When you consider the properties of keratin, it is logical why this would have an effect, producing an intense temporary 're-hydration' effect. Provided you do not 'bake this off' too quickly with over-exposure to basking lamps, to me this would seem a far safer and more natural approach, as it would approximate the dew point cycle that occurs in even quite hot, arid habitats under certain circumstances (do not confuse the dew point with relative humidity. This is a fundamental technical error that I see constantly on pet keepers forums). Here is a helpful chart that demonstrates the difference.
Also note that Richard Fife does not subject his tortoises to 24/7 constant high humidity. He provides a "humid hide" only and the rest of the area is what he calls "dry" (I do not have current information on what exact level that is). My question is this. If Richard Fife is indeed raising nicely formed tortoises (including leopards and sulcatas) using just the humid hide approach (and I have no reason to disbelieve him - he is a genuinely good, skilled keeper and has shown great dedication to trying to solve this problem), why are enforced 24/7 super-saturated conditions required as advocated by some on this forum? The two situations are entirely different.
Richard is still producing tortoises that pyramid. I know. I bought a bunch from him. Not horribly pyramided mind you, but not as smooth as mine either. Certainly better than what was produced before he and his wife (who he credits for the humid hide "discovery") began using the humid hide technique. I am not attempting to mimic anyone's technique. I have combined useful elements from many people to come up with what I have found to work the best. This is an ongoing process too. I intend to use Frances' IR-A info too, when I figure out how best to incorporate it.
Again it has been an ongoing 6 year process of trial, error, and refinement to get to where we are now. Why do we do it this way? Why do we advocate doing it this way on this forum? BECAUSE IT WORKS! It produces healthy great looking tortoises. Combined with a good diet, suitable UV, hydration and exercise in large enclosures, we are growing HEALTHY SMOOTH tortoises using these techniques. Haven't you noticed? More moderate parameters generate more moderate results.
Testudoresearch said:What I really very sad and thoroughly, deeply depressing is just how far some keepers these days are absolutely and totally "cut off" from reality.
Do you not understand that many of us think EXACTLY this about you? You ignore the reality of thousands of pyramided tortoises that were raised totally inappropriately as people attempted to copy what you promote as "natural" conditions, at the same time ignoring the reality of thousands of other tortoises that are healthy and smooth because they were raised in conditions that were in line with what works for that species in a given captive environment.
From MY POV it seems YOU are the one cut off from reality. You keep going on and on about what you have observed in the wild and disregard what happens right in front of everyone's eyes every day.
No one is saying nature is "second best". We are saying that we are unable to duplicate what nature accomplishes in our captive environments, so we make the necessary adjustments to keep our captive animals healthy.
All that other stuff is just negative mumbo jumbo. Save your "arrogance", "foolish" and other doom and gloom comments about the state of the entire world for your shrink. Good lord man. No need to foretell the end of the natural world because some dude in CA is having success raising tortoises at 10% higher humidity than what you think is "right". Talk about cut off from reality...