Curious about pyramiding

[Reptilian Feline]

I want to make sure my little leopard tort is as smooth as possible, so I have been reading the excellent thread by Tom on pyramiding in leopard torts.
One thing I don't fully understand is what actually pyramiding is. I know what it looks like, but how does it form? Is it the shutes not being shed properly, or is it the innards pushing out of the shell? Humidity to prevent it sounds very logical either way, I'm just curious about the physicallity of it as well.

 

[tortoiseplanet]

WHAT IS “PYRAMIDING”?
Pyramiding is the excessive upward growth of the scutes (the individual segments that make up the tortoise’s carapace or shell) that results in each segment taking on a pyramid-like shape.

WHAT CAUSES PYRAMIDING?
Low humidity has been demonstrated to be a very significant factor in the development of pyramiding in sulcata tortoises (See reference at the end of this article.) There are many other factors that contribute to the shape of a tortoise’s shell. Some of the other things that may contribute to the development of pyramiding include:

Overfeeding
Excess protein in the diet
Excess fat in the diet
Imbalance of calcium and phosphorus (i.e., nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism, also known as “metabolic bone disease”)
Not enough exercise
Genetics
Environment influences such as being kept outside the preferred operating temperatures, inadequate water intake, lack of ultraviolet light, and lighting that is not bright enough
TIPS TO HELP PREVENT PYRAMIDING IN YOUR TORTOISE
Ensure proper humidity levels for your species of tortoise. This has been scientifically proven to be the most significant factor in captive tortoises!
Even tortoises that naturally live in arid climates have exposure to increased humidity down in their burrows.
Young growing tortoises need at least 65% humidity for most of the day and need access to 90% humidity as desired in order to have normal shell growth. In Arizona the air humidity is much lower than this even during the monsoon season.
Provide access to water with a large shallow pan that is cleaned and disinfected daily.
Spray-mist the enclosure daily or run a humidifier for a few hours a day.
Make a humidity chamber. A simple chamber is a small plastic tub with a hole cut in its side. Attach a sponge to the top of the container and soak it daily. A different technique is to pack damp sphagnum moss into a corner of the cage. Soaked cork hollows or half-section of logs soaked in water also help increase the humidity.
Soak the tortoise one or more times a week in a shallow bath of warm water for 30-60 minutes
Provide a high fiber, low-calorie, low protein diet
Desert tortoises, leopard tortoises, and sulcata tortoises diet should be eating >75% fresh grasses and hays. When this is not practical, Zoomed’s Grassland Tortoise Diet is a good part of a complete diet for younger tortoises. Older sulcata tortoises should always have timothy hay available.
Provide all day access to food vs. offering set meals
It’s important that you are offering the right foods so as not to promote overeating
Feed plants and greens that have a high bioavailability of calcium or supplement with calcium carbonate or calcium citrate
Encourage exercise and activity
This can be done by providing a large enclosure to roam or by instituting environmental enrichment to stimulate activity. Placing new objects in the cage will cause many tortoises to come out and investigate them.
Provide access to natural, unfiltered sunlight.
The sun is best, however there are several high quality lights available that provide adequate levels of UVB light
Provide the correct temperature gradient for your particular tortoise
Too cool of an environment will affect how your tortoise absorbs and metabolizes what it eats
WHY IS PYRAMIDING SO BAD FOR TORTOISES?
The problem can go deeper than a lumpy shell. Shell deformities can interfere with normal lung function and cause female tortoises to have problems laying eggs. It can also make the legs weak and move in abnormal positions resulting in overgrown toenails and arthritis. Sometimes the pyramiding causes paralysis due to changes around the spinal cord. Pyramiding can lead to an early death.

 

[Markw84]

I want to make sure my little leopard tort is as smooth as possible, so I have been reading the excellent thread by Tom on pyramiding in leopard torts.
One thing I don't fully understand is what actually pyramiding is. I know what it looks like, but how does it form? Is it the shutes not being shed properly, or is it the innards pushing out of the shell? Humidity to prevent it sounds very logical either way, I'm just curious about the physicallity of it as well.

Nothing has been scientifically PROVEN yet, but there are lots of ideas out there, most of which are very outdated and ones I used to believe and tested them all. Many listed above. We tried everything and gradually eliminated all but humidity, as @Tom and many others here through the 1990's and 2000's.

Last year I posted a theory I have on the actually metabolic cause. A few members here were kind enough to play devil's advocate and I think it proved an insightful discussion. If you really want to look into it and have a LOT of time, read this thread I posted and explored last year.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-cause-of-pyramiding.143520/page-3

Since then I have continued to study and follow any research I can find on anything at all relevant to this. Now, I am more convinced than ever that this theory is correct. It even accounts for why we would also see some wild tortoises pyramided, and are seeming to see more "wild" tortoises with some pyramiding these days.

 

[Reptilian Feline]

That was an interesting read, Mark! Now I understand better what is going on. The bone gets the pyramids, then the scutes cover the bone and that's why it looks like it's the scutes that pyramid.
It seems logical that high humidity would prevent pyramiding, at least to some extent. The new growth between the scutes will be more pliable when warm and humid, kind of like our fingernails after a long and nice soak in a bathtub. It would then be easier for the bone to grow unhindered.
Maybe if the tort is kept in a too dry condition when it's young, the connecting tissue between the scutes doesn't flex enough and so the bone pushes upwards instead of out. At least that would make sence to me. I will keep my little one as humid as possible and not overfeed him so he doesn't grow too fast.

 

[Markw84]

That was an interesting read, Mark! Now I understand better what is going on. The bone gets the pyramids, then the scutes cover the bone and that's why it looks like it's the scutes that pyramid.
It seems logical that high humidity would prevent pyramiding, at least to some extent. The new growth between the scutes will be more pliable when warm and humid, kind of like our fingernails after a long and nice soak in a bathtub. It would then be easier for the bone to grow unhindered.
Maybe if the tort is kept in a too dry condition when it's young, the connecting tissue between the scutes doesn't flex enough and so the bone pushes upwards instead of out. At least that would make sence to me. I will keep my little one as humid as possible and not overfeed him so he doesn't grow too fast.

"overfeeding" and fast growth does not cause nor contribute to pyramiding. Growth when conditions are too dry does.

 

[Martin Martinussen]

"overfeeding" and fast growth does not cause nor contribute to pyramiding. Growth when conditions are too dry does.

A side question how do you overfeed a turt?
Im pretty sure they have access to grass/hay 24/7 in the wild.....

 

[wellington]

WHAT IS “PYRAMIDING”?
Pyramiding is the excessive upward growth of the scutes (the individual segments that make up the tortoise’s carapace or shell) that results in each segment taking on a pyramid-like shape.

WHAT CAUSES PYRAMIDING?
Low humidity has been demonstrated to be a very significant factor in the development of pyramiding in sulcata tortoises (See reference at the end of this article.) There are many other factors that contribute to the shape of a tortoise’s shell. Some of the other things that may contribute to the development of pyramiding include:

Overfeeding
Excess protein in the diet
Excess fat in the diet
Imbalance of calcium and phosphorus (i.e., nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism, also known as “metabolic bone disease”)
Not enough exercise
Genetics
Environment influences such as being kept outside the preferred operating temperatures, inadequate water intake, lack of ultraviolet light, and lighting that is not bright enough
TIPS TO HELP PREVENT PYRAMIDING IN YOUR TORTOISE
Ensure proper humidity levels for your species of tortoise. This has been scientifically proven to be the most significant factor in captive tortoises!
Even tortoises that naturally live in arid climates have exposure to increased humidity down in their burrows.
Young growing tortoises need at least 65% humidity for most of the day and need access to 90% humidity as desired in order to have normal shell growth. In Arizona the air humidity is much lower than this even during the monsoon season.
Provide access to water with a large shallow pan that is cleaned and disinfected daily.
Spray-mist the enclosure daily or run a humidifier for a few hours a day.
Make a humidity chamber. A simple chamber is a small plastic tub with a hole cut in its side. Attach a sponge to the top of the container and soak it daily. A different technique is to pack damp sphagnum moss into a corner of the cage. Soaked cork hollows or half-section of logs soaked in water also help increase the humidity.
Soak the tortoise one or more times a week in a shallow bath of warm water for 30-60 minutes
Provide a high fiber, low-calorie, low protein diet
Desert tortoises, leopard tortoises, and sulcata tortoises diet should be eating >75% fresh grasses and hays. When this is not practical, Zoomed’s Grassland Tortoise Diet is a good part of a complete diet for younger tortoises. Older sulcata tortoises should always have timothy hay available.
Provide all day access to food vs. offering set meals
It’s important that you are offering the right foods so as not to promote overeating
Feed plants and greens that have a high bioavailability of calcium or supplement with calcium carbonate or calcium citrate
Encourage exercise and activity
This can be done by providing a large enclosure to roam or by instituting environmental enrichment to stimulate activity. Placing new objects in the cage will cause many tortoises to come out and investigate them.
Provide access to natural, unfiltered sunlight.
The sun is best, however there are several high quality lights available that provide adequate levels of UVB light
Provide the correct temperature gradient for your particular tortoise
Too cool of an environment will affect how your tortoise absorbs and metabolizes what it eats
WHY IS PYRAMIDING SO BAD FOR TORTOISES?
The problem can go deeper than a lumpy shell. Shell deformities can interfere with normal lung function and cause female tortoises to have problems laying eggs. It can also make the legs weak and move in abnormal positions resulting in overgrown toenails and arthritis. Sometimes the pyramiding causes paralysis due to changes around the spinal cord. Pyramiding can lead to an early death.

Thoughtful that you took the time to post this for the OP. However, most of the info is wrong and outdated, which is what we, on this forum, has been pushing to try and get members to understand. That most of the info out there is wrong.
Searching for answers on the forum and not the www would result in correct info being passed on.

 

[Tom]

A side question how do you overfeed a turt?
Im pretty sure they have access to grass/hay 24/7 in the wild.....

You bring up a good point. I don't think a person can "over feed" a tortoise that is wandering around grazing on grass and weeds in a large enclosure. I think the only way to "over feed" is to offer large quantities of the wrong foods to a tortoise that is stuck in a tiny enclosure where they can't exercise enough.

In my opinion, our tortoises should be fed as much as they care to graze of the right foods.

 

[Martin Martinussen]

You bring up a good point. I don't think a person can "over feed" a tortoise that is wandering around grazing on grass and weeds in a large enclosure. I think the only way to "over feed" is to offer large quantities of the wrong foods to a tortoise that is stuck in a tiny enclosure where they can't exercise enough.

In my opinion, our tortoises should be fed as much as they care to graze of the right foods.

Yeah just what i was thinking..
Just wanted to see what other people was thinking about it..

 

[Reptilian Feline]

Tom - that was my thought when I wrote it. We who have been interested in herps and other animals since childhood, have seen some excamples of overfeeding in captive kept animals. One of my herp friends told me about a person who overfed some baby boa constrictors until one died.
A tortoise is not a cat or dog or snake, but even so... a friendly happy tortoise who is given the wrong food every time it comes up to you, the keeper, will be overfed. Most animals, given the chance, will eat as much as they can, so they can last through the lean season. If the lean season never comes, then that animal will be in big trouble when constricted by a shell.

People will mistreat their loved pets out of ignorance... "but he is hungry, of course I'll give him a treat!" ... and the cocker spaniel, persian cat, or tortoise will become overweight.

 

[tortoiseplanet]

Thoughtful that you took the time to post this for the OP. However, most of the info is wrong and outdated, which is what we, on this forum, has been pushing to try and get members to understand. That most of the info out there is wrong.
Searching for answers on the forum and not the www would result in correct info being passed on.

Thank you for letting me know, I have that sheet printed so if you could poking out what is incorrect that would help a lot!

 

[wellington]

Thank you for letting me know, I have that sheet printed so if you could poking out what is incorrect that would help a lot!

Mainly what it says about what causes pyramiding.
Also what it says about why is pyramiding bad for tortoises. Most of that info relates more to MBD then it would pyramiding. Although, I don't know if any of it has been proving to be a result of pyramiding.

 

[JoesMum]

@Tom has done a lot of research into pyramiding.

The biggest single cause seems to be a tortoise being raised too dry... that is with humidity too low. I will attempt to find a link although he himself may well chip in.

 

[JoesMum]

@Tom has done a lot of research into pyramiding.

The biggest single cause seems to be a tortoise being raised too dry... that is with humidity too low. I will attempt to find a link although he himself may well chip in.

These threads are a start for anyone interested

Does diet contribute to pyramiding?
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/does-diet-contribute-to-pyramiding.153647/

The end of pyramiding
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding.15137/

 

[Romeo Serback]

These threads are a start for anyone interested

Does diet contribute to pyramiding?
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/does-diet-contribute-to-pyramiding.153647/

The end of pyramiding
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding.15137/

That was a long read, but I think I got something out of it. Lol