What is the physiology behind pyramiding?

[wellington]

Along with your next post, please post pics of your tortoises and give us a run down of the way you raise yours and what part of the country or world you do this in, please.

 

[Testudoresearch]

When you take temperature and humidity readings, what level do you sample? Measuring from 6' above the ground will have different readings than measuring under a bush or at the base of thick grass. The moisture at the leopard hatchling level is much higher.

I believe some of the other points you raised have been addressed in my other response (above). There is a considerable amount of field data, incidentally, on wild growth rates for numerous species. The zoological (vs. pet keeping) literature is full of such reports. Mark and recapture is one means by which this is established. Individuals can be tracked over many years and precise growth recorded. For some example accounts see Hailey & Willemsen's excellent papers:

Your point about where and how you measure RH is valid and important. It is is standard practice to take the measurement 1 m above ground level, but as you rightly point out, this does not accurately reflect what is happening at 'tortoise level' - this is one reason why standard climate data can be misleading. I take data both at 1 m to establish a general ambient level and again right next to the tortoises, in some cases, using miniature data loggers that record all changes over a period of up to months at a time. These are later recovered, leading to a complete chart of the precise conditions the animal has actually experienced. This permits very accurate data to be captured, particularly when combined with GPS logger data which also records movements.

---

Along with your next post, please post pics of your tortoises and give us a run down of the way you raise yours and what part of the country or world you do this in, please.

I am uploading some examples now, and will post shortly.

 

[Tom]

Tom,

I have read your reports of your experiences with G. pardalis and G. sulcata in various threads posted here. I note you recommend rearing in a high humidity environment. Your results are interesting, and I applaud your tenacity in pursuing this research. Your results are meaningful and useful. However.... I do believe that you may be misinterpreting certain causes and effects. I also note that you state, above, that you believe in some form not only of external, but some form of "internal" or"cellular" dehydration as one of the causes. This would be quite remarkable, because physiologically, it would be unique in the animal kingdom. No such process is known to science. Living cells, within an organism, are invariably in a state of homeostasis - and if dehydrated to the point of "collapse", as proponents of the theory you appear to subscribe to suggest, then they would be no longer living cells, but dead cells. There is no cytological evidence, anywhere, that this is occurring.

The areas just below the outer keratin are very well supplied by numerous blood vessels. The underlying bone too, is also well supplied and is invariably at homeostasis. If any localised "drying" did take place at that level, it would cause cell death and localised necrosis. Examination of numerous 'pyramided' carapaces fails to reveal any such condition.

So, I think we have to look beyond that theory (which remains a theory, as absolutely no-one has produced a sliver of real, hard evidence to support it). This is particularly important when a theory contradicts the established physiological and biological sciences.

I have two questions.

The first concerns Leopard tortoises in the wild which exhibit a type of raised scute phenomenon. I note you have said that you believe these are most probably ex-captives that have been released into the wild? (I hope I am not misquoting you here). While I have no count that this does occur (I have studied G. pardalis in South Africa), I believe it highly improbable it accounts for all of them - by a long way. Furthermore, there are numerous specimens in natural history museums, some dating back almost 200 years, that display identical scute formations. These were collected, in many cases from extremely remote areas, long before anyone, anywhere was keeping these animals in captivity. This is significant evidence. In the same context, it is useful to look at another species from the same part of the world, Psammobates tentorius (the Tent tortoise). These display, as a matter of course, very similar scute formations to some of these wild Leopards tortoises. Clearly, they are not all ex-captives, and again, we have collection material going back a very long way. It is quite clearly normal for them - not a result of any pathology or incorrect environment. How do they fit into the scheme of things, and if it is normal for them, why is not possible that it might also be normal for some populations of G. pardalis?

My second question is more of a practical nature. You are using a very high humidity environment to rear G. pardalis. I understand you have seen these natural habitats... if so, you must surely recognise that the environment you are using is totally different from that in the wild. It is, in general, a semi-arid, scrubby habitat. Finding pockets of high humidity in that habitat is very, very difficult. I have recorded the actual conditions right next to both juvenile and adult wild Leopard tortoises, and typically, RH ranges from 35-60% for most of the year. Very high levels are only seen at certain times of year, during and immediately following rain. For most of the time, RH is in the 40-50% range.

So as far as this goes, I have to question why people feel that such an entirely different set of microclimate conditions from that in the wild are needed in captivity? Surely, it should not be necessary. An intensely artificial method is being used here that bears almost no relation to conditions this species experiences in nature, in its natural habitat. It is important to enquire why, and what else is going wrong that demands such an approach?

Thank you for your time. I do believe these are important questions that all serious keepers and investigators have an interest in seeing addressed.

To address your opening paragraphs: As I stated in sentence 1 of my reply, the cellular pressure theory is simply something that I have read that could explain what we see in captivity. You state that cells are either fully hydrated, or dead, as if their is no in between. Haven't you ever seen a wilted plant? Haven't you seen that wilted plant perk back up with the addition of water? Again, I have no idea what is really happening with those pyramided cells on a physiological level, I only know what I've seen right in front of my own eyes hundreds or thousands of times. If the theory that I repeated above is not correct, then please, by all means, enlighten us. I am willing to look at ANY theory that will give more insight into this problem. Frankly I STILL do not know what is happening or why, but I DO know how to grow a smooth leopard or sulcata and I know how to grow a lumpy one.

Your first question: I never said that pyramiding in wild leopards does not exist. I have made the point that many "wild" ones were started dry in captivity and this could account for some of the "wild" pyramided leopards that have been seen. Truth be told, no person, you or me included, really knows the answer to this. I don't know how many, or to what degree, "wild" leopards do or don't pyramid, and neither do you. Some of them, a little bit? Probably. All of them, or a lot? No. There has never been a wild one that looks like the absolutely grotesque ones that have been produced in dry indoor North American enclosures. I have thrown out my observations and what I have learned as a point of discussion for this forum. I have never commented one way or another on tent tortoises as I have no experience with them at all. We have a member here named Will who has seen and studied them in the wild, and he has generously shared his experiences and knowledge about them. From what he has posted it appears that some pyramiding is "natural" for that species.

For your second question: It should be noted that this IS a much more muddled case with G. pardalis than it is with G. sulcata due to the wide variation in wild leopard habitats, where sulcatas have much more homogenous seasons and weather patterns through out their range. I was in and around Cape Town and George for about four months from late March to June. We had many days with heat and humidity that rivaled the South Eastern US in summer. Me and the dogs were miserable trying to work in those conditions. As Fall set in and the days got cooler it did get drier. Of course the tortoises were not active, eating much or growing during this colder drier time. Not coincidentally, we have a South African member who also explained this to us. He said it is generally humid down there and the only time its really dry is during the cold winter months when the Southern leopards aren't active, eating or growing. And the way I keep my leopards is not "totally different from that in the wild". I keep my South African leopards in very similar conditions to what I observed in South Africa.

We can argue all day about what conditions do or don't exist in the wild. Having been to Africa, you and I both know the micro climates can vary tremendously in a relatively small area, much less the entire enormous range of the leopard. Where will this get us? Nowhere. The people who wrote the books on sulcatas also researched the climate over there extensively. They erroneously based their care info on their incorrect assumptions. Leopard tortoise book writers did the same thing. Where did this gets us all? It got us two decades of horribly pyramided, dehydrated captive tortoises. SOOOOOooooooo, rather than focus on what can or can't be known about what happens in the wild, rather than trying to simulate what we think happens in the wild for leopards, since that tactic failed for decades, it is my opinion that we ought to look at what does or doesn't work in our captive environments. For nearly 20 years I, and everyone else failed to produce a smooth leopard or sulcata, by following the "expert" advice. I quit keeping leopards years ago because of this. I kept my sulcatas, but I was more or less out of the hobby until someone came along and figured this all out. A series of events and chance encounters brought me back in in 2007, right around the time this was all being figured out. Since then I have been experimenting and observing the results of just about every method of keeping imaginable. Plain and simple; when it comes to sulcatas and leopards, dry dehydrated conditions lead to pyramiding and wet hydrated conditions lead to smooth growth. There are a million variables and "shades of gray" within these two extremes, but that's what I have observed over and over all over this country in a general sense. It is also repeatable by anyone, anywhere, anytime, as you have seen here on this forum. People all over the world are getting positive results by keeping their tortoises humid and hydrated.

In short, while I find the study of climate and weather on the African continent interesting, it is of limited value to me for raising captive bred animals on THIS continent. For almost 20 years the "dry" methods failed me and everyone I know. For the last 5 years or so, the "wet" methods have succeeded for me and everyone I know.


Now for another subject: We have a trend on this forum of people showing up, helping no one, sharing nothing, and trying to cut down anyone who stands up and tries to make things better for our captive tortoises. They like to say how this, that and the other thing are all wrong, and use lofty scientific terminology and big fancy words while they do it, but then they don't say what's right. They don't show their own positive results. Often we have no idea who they are, where they are, what species they currently have or have past experience with, how much practical experience they have, or even what their name is. There are labels for people like this, and right now YOU fit the entirety of the above description. You have the benefit of reading back over years of my posts and learning my tactics, experience level, failures and a whole host of other info. Why don't you take a breather on telling everyone how wrong we all are, and take a moment to introduce yourself and let us know who you are, what you know and how you know it.

Lastly, if you can raise a leopard or sulcata smooth and healthy in a dry environment, you are someone I would like to learn from. If you have done this, I would ask that rather than point out how I am wrong about this, that and the other thing, please demonstrate how you did it and show the results. In other words, do what I did. Stick your neck out there. Tell us what you are going to do, why you think it will work, and then go get a brand new hatchling and document what happens from day one with pics and explanations. We will have lots of questions and your results will speak for you, as mine have done for me.

 

[Testudoresearch]

Along with your next post, please post pics of your tortoises and give us a run down of the way you raise yours and what part of the country or world you do this in, please.

One pair of photos is of one of my own 100% CB Testudo graeca graeca. The other pair is of a wild example. Which is which, any why?

This is 100%, CB 2nd generation Testudo horsfieldii photographed at 6 years of age.

I do not personally keep or breed G. sulcata these days. I have done so in the distant past. Likewise with G. pardalis. I did breed and raise them years ago (and will post some photos) but there are major problems with finding adequate homes for these in Europe, so I ceased doing so about 8 years ago. I now pretty much concentrate exclusively on working with Testudo graeca graeca (various races, from Libyan to Moroccan, Spanish and Middle Eastern). I do not keep other species here because I am located in wild tortoise habitat, and the risk of potential intra-specific contamination would be too great. I do, however, continue work with many other species at zoos and rescue centres throughout Europe.

In the case of the CB T. horsdfieldii (above) that was raised entirely in Northern Europe on a fairly artificial regime. The CB T. g.graeca was raised 50% in Northern Europe and the remainder of the time in very similar conditions to wild examples, with no supplementary feeding, and natural hibernation/estivation cycles here in Southern Europe. No 'high humidity' facilities are provided. No artificial housing is now provided. They are outdoors all year round. It is a very arid environment, and the alleged high humidity conditions suggested by some that they are supposed to be relying on simply do not exist. It is not unusual to have the last rainfall of the year in May, and apart from a rare thunderstorm in August, no more rain at all until September. It can then be very dry through December. Ambient air humidity can be below 30%, and at ground level, rarely higher than 50%. 45% is not unusual.

I would prefer to concentrate on a factual discussion and sharing of data rather than bring 'personalities' into it. That is, in my experience of the internet, rarely helpful. Things tend to get side-tracked and can degenerate rather rapidly. It is one reason I rarely post on public forums these days.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Raising Testudo is different than raising Sulcata and Leopard tortoises.
This high humidity method doesn't apply to your species.

You tortoises look great but they are comparing apples to oranges.

 

[wellington]

Nice torts. Can't wait to see your other pics. However, I am kinda confused. The high humidity, you referenced to in Toms threads are for leopards and sulcatas. There are others that benefit too, but his threads are for just the two. The humidity you mention that yours were and are now housed in is what is usually suggested for that species. A little higher I believe for hatchlings, which again are probably hunkered down under the shrub or burrows where the humidity is usually higher anyway.

 

[edwardbo]

Please don't let this post deteriorate into a pissing match.there is maybe too much material for most ti comprehend in the manner presented. Ahah, a voice of reason is what I thought reading testodos first response. I think the words let's listen are fitting .im rushing,but testodos,is there nerve endings on the surface of the she ?(how is it they respond to the slightest misting even when their head is buried ? And can pyramiding be ground down or sanded of?what would happen? I'm really rushing ,thank your .don't abandon this forum due to the reception (chilly). Please keep talking I'm all ears.

 

[nearpass]

I'm all ears, too. Many of us think we know much more than we really do about this subject, which is far from understood even by experts in the field who have been working with these animals for years. I, for one, am very appreciative that someone so obviously intimately involved with the study of tortoises for many years is willing to provide us with some insights and, to me, considerable food for thought. Please, more information and thoughts...and pictures, Testudoreasearch!

 

[tortadise]

Tom,

I have read your reports of your experiences with G. pardalis and G. sulcata in various threads posted here. I note you recommend rearing in a high humidity environment. Your results are interesting, and I applaud your tenacity in pursuing this research. Your results are meaningful and useful. However.... I do believe that you may be misinterpreting certain causes and effects. I also note that you state, above, that you believe in some form not only of external, but some form of "internal" or"cellular" dehydration as one of the causes. This would be quite remarkable, because physiologically, it would be unique in the animal kingdom. No such process is known to science. Living cells, within an organism, are invariably in a state of homeostasis - and if dehydrated to the point of "collapse", as proponents of the theory you appear to subscribe to suggest, then they would be no longer living cells, but dead cells. There is no cytological evidence, anywhere, that this is occurring.

The areas just below the outer keratin are very well supplied by numerous blood vessels. The underlying bone too, is also well supplied and is invariably at homeostasis. If any localised "drying" did take place at that level, it would cause cell death and localised necrosis. Examination of numerous 'pyramided' carapaces fails to reveal any such condition.

So, I think we have to look beyond that theory (which remains a theory, as absolutely no-one has produced a sliver of real, hard evidence to support it). This is particularly important when a theory contradicts the established physiological and biological sciences.

I have two questions.

The first concerns Leopard tortoises in the wild which exhibit a type of raised scute phenomenon. I note you have said that you believe these are most probably ex-captives that have been released into the wild? (I hope I am not misquoting you here). While I have no count that this does occur (I have studied G. pardalis in South Africa), I believe it highly improbable it accounts for all of them - by a long way. Furthermore, there are numerous specimens in natural history museums, some dating back almost 200 years, that display identical scute formations. These were collected, in many cases from extremely remote areas, long before anyone, anywhere was keeping these animals in captivity. This is significant evidence. In the same context, it is useful to look at another species from the same part of the world, Psammobates tentorius (the Tent tortoise). These display, as a matter of course, very similar scute formations to some of these wild Leopards tortoises. Clearly, they are not all ex-captives, and again, we have collection material going back a very long way. It is quite clearly normal for them - not a result of any pathology or incorrect environment. How do they fit into the scheme of things, and if it is normal for them, why is not possible that it might also be normal for some populations of G. pardalis?

My second question is more of a practical nature. You are using a very high humidity environment to rear G. pardalis. I understand you have seen these natural habitats... if so, you must surely recognise that the environment you are using is totally different from that in the wild. It is, in general, a semi-arid, scrubby habitat. Finding pockets of high humidity in that habitat is very, very difficult. I have recorded the actual conditions right next to both juvenile and adult wild Leopard tortoises, and typically, RH ranges from 35-60% for most of the year. Very high levels are only seen at certain times of year, during and immediately following rain. For most of the time, RH is in the 40-50% range.

So as far as this goes, I have to question why people feel that such an entirely different set of microclimate conditions from that in the wild are needed in captivity? Surely, it should not be necessary. An intensely artificial method is being used here that bears almost no relation to conditions this species experiences in nature, in its natural habitat. It is important to enquire why, and what else is going wrong that demands such an approach?

Thank you for your time. I do believe these are important questions that all serious keepers and investigators have an interest in seeing addressed.

Very well put indeed. I am very curious to learn more of this research. In particular with the genus of psammobates. I do wonder, since the range of oculifera, tentorius is quite vast compared to that of the geometricus. The minor differences in carapace shape and growth of the scutes but yet the difference in climate from brushy grassy thorn brush in the Karoo versus the sandy rocky Namaque. Oculifera, Tentorius tend to present a more pronounced scute raising, than that of the geomtricus. I would love to know the if you have noted any major differences among the data, and or climactic variations. Knowing the geometricus is endemically present in a very small range. In comparison of latter species of the genus.

In a follow up question semi pertaining to the first. Chilensis is a very very intrigueing species of Arid-Semi Arid dwelling. Given the summers and climate data I have been able to find. These are exposed to lateraly very similar weather conditions of extreme heat summers and mild winters. Chilensis tends to not develop a pronounced scute pattern, in comparison to RSA/Namibian psammobates. Very similar patterns of life they take on as well. So what would your opinion or even better yet findings(if any research of this comparative title in arid to semi arid species) of the difference in physical development that pertains to the "pyramided" scutes.

It seems as if the pyramiding (naturally occurring in some species) would lead to a thermoregulation assistance. But perhaps not so in Chilensis. Of course I take no attempt in providing noted/cited material. But I do ask you. Since you seem very well educated and appropriate lots of research in this field.

Thank You,
Kelly

 

[AnnV]

I am not very familiar with the habits of this species. But I wonder how much time is spent burrowed in the damp ground or in other types of humid hides, in their natural environment.

 

[Testudoresearch]

Raising Testudo is different than raising Sulcata and Leopard tortoises.
This high humidity method doesn't apply to your species.

You tortoises look great but they are comparing apples to oranges.

That is absolutely not the view of everyone, by any means. There are hundreds of keepers in Europe who promote the "high humidity" method for these species too. The internet forums are full of them. I would be interested to know why you believe this? What is the precise biological difference between say, a Testudo graeca and G. pardalis in terms of:

1) Bone development
2) The growth process
3) Relationship between diet and growth rate
4) Skeleton-Keratin interface and cell proliferation?

I would be very interested to know, because as far as I am aware there is none. The biology and physiology in all those respects are absolutely identical. No difference whatsoever.

However, here is an apple to compare to an apple:

CB and raised G. pardalis at 8 years of age.

This one was very, very smooth. Again - no "high humidity" system used.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

You don't think different species can have different husbandry requirements? I do.

Do you think Tom and I (amongst others) use high humidity in closed chambers for all species alike? We don't.
My Russians (adult wc) are not kept hot and humid. His Russian babies do have humid hides but they aren't housed like his sulcata hatchlings.

Your Leopard is very smooth. It looks great. I assume this guy was well hydrated? Can you share with us how you housed him? The more details you share about the husbandry the more other keepers have to glean from.

 

[Testudoresearch]

Just to further respond to a couple of interesting points raised.

The effect of wear

I am glad someone mentioned this. It is often overlooked. Yes, in the wild in most localities quite a lot of wear on the keratin does occur. Abrasion from scrubby, thorny plants, bumping into rocks, abrasion from sand, pebbles, etc. I would stress the amount is quite variable and highly dependent on the precise habitat. The most extreme examples I have ever encountered were at the very limits of Testudo graeca's known range, in the (very) far South of Morocco in the region of Tiznit. Just look at this....incredible!

What you see there is something akin to sand blasting.. normally, it is not as obvious as that. That particular habitat was extreme in itself. Not really typical of T. graeca at all, in fact, we were very surprised to find as healthy population there. It actually looks closer to T. klieinmanni habitat than T. graeca...

The net result is that quite a lot of wear can occur, and when it does, it 'thins' the keratin scutes substantially. In some, less abrasive habitats, very little physical wear may occur, however. Even so, microbial erosion due to keratin-eating bacteria in the substrate can be a factor. I have observed this a number of times. It occurs during periods when they are buried, hibernation and estivation. The result is similar, a thinning of the keratin. This is in contrast to many captive situations where little or no wear occurs - resulting in a very thick scute depth. This has important implications.

Psammobates

I wish I knew more. Unfortunately, I have not had extended field experience with them. I have seen them in the wild, but far too briefly to draw any detailed conclusions. I have also kept (briefly) a few lone examples....I would love to study them in depth.. but there is only much time... my knowledge of them is therefore far too limited to say much of any value.

No-one has had a guess yet at which of the pair of Testudo graeca photos were CB and which wild. Give it a go... nothing to lose!

---

You don't think different species can have different husbandry requirements? I do.

I absolutely did not suggest that. I was not talking about husbandry. I was talking about their physiology and biology, with specific reference to the structure and development of the skeleton and keratin scutes. Just that, nothing else.

Where is the difference, strictly in those terms?

That Leopard was CB and raised in Northern Europe, in a moderate humidity environment - mostly between 50-60% RH. It had access to fresh drinking water, but was not "soaked", sprayed or in any other way given special treatment. It had a low digestibility, high-fibre, low protein, calcium-rich diet with some oral D3 supplement in the form of Nutrobal (as natural UVB levels there were pretty poor). A pair of 48" 40W UVB tubes were also used at approximately 14" above ground level. It was allowed outside as frequently as weather permitted, which was not really often enough. I subsequently rehomed it to a keeper in a more suitable climate, where it could have a better life.

---

Just to be going on with, something to look at. Large adult G. pardalis (Addo Elephant Park, SA). Has an abnormal scute division. Quite common, though, even in wild tortoises.

Some typical habitats of G. pardalis in SA

 

[Testudoresearch]

To address your opening paragraphs: As I stated in sentence 1 of my reply, the cellular pressure theory is simply something that I have read that could explain what we see in captivity. You state that cells are either fully hydrated, or dead, as if their is no in between. Haven't you ever seen a wilted plant? Haven't you seen that wilted plant perk back up with the addition of water?

Yes, but a plant is not a living animal. They function in very different ways indeed. You can certainly have severely dehydrated tortoises. No-one denies that. Certainly not me. However, dehydration in tortoises does not produce cellular collapse. It is very well understood. It has been studied extensively for decades. There are whole texts on the subject. It is lectured on in veterinary and biological science courses. We know what happens. We understand the biology very well. Nothing as drastic as what you suggest takes place. For anything on that scale to occur, they would have to be dehydrated practically to the point of mummification. They would certainly no longer be living.

Again, I have no idea what is really happening with those pyramided cells on a physiological level, I only know what I've seen right in front of my own eyes hundreds or thousands of times.

You are making good observations of a real effect. That is not being denied. What I do take issue with is the conclusions drawn from the observations. Please understand that I am not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it. Like yourself, I suspect, this is a topic that has fascinated me for many years. I have spent a lot of time investigating it from different perspectives. My only interest is to drill down to the truth of what is really going on, and I am the first to admit that even after more than 35 years of working on it, there are still things I do not fully understand. I continue to try to learn more.

Your first question: I never said that pyramiding in wild leopards does not exist. I have made the point that many "wild" ones were started dry in captivity and this could account for some of the "wild" pyramided leopards that have been seen. Truth be told, no person, you or me included, really knows the answer to this. I don't know how many, or to what degree, "wild" leopards do or don't pyramid, and neither do you. Some of them, a little bit? Probably. All of them, or a lot? No.

Well, again, I am not entirely disagreeing with you, but I have reservations about some things you have said. For example, you say that "When I was over there in '99 and '05, I saw a total of 6 wild leos, actually in the wild. All of them were totally smooth". With respect, 6 is not very many, and is not a number I would be prepared to draw many conclusions from. I have probably seen three-fifty to four hundred in the wild (I admit to not keeping a precise count), and even then, I cannot be sure it would be entirely representative. I can say with certainty, however, that quite a number were far from 'perfectly' flat or domed. I am guessing - which I don't like to do - but I would estimate between 15-20% from a variety of habitats and locations.

There has never been a wild one that looks like the absolutely grotesque ones that have been produced in dry indoor North American enclosures.

We are in 100% agreement on that point.

I have never commented one way or another on tent tortoises as I have no experience with them at all. We have a member here named Will who has seen and studied them in the wild, and he has generously shared his experiences and knowledge about them. From what he has posted it appears that some pyramiding is "natural" for that species.

It is interesting, is it not, though, to inquire why? What is the difference? What is going on? It cannot be caused by an incorrect diet... and they are in what should be their ideal environment... is it genetic? or is environment or diet still somehow involved? I confess that I do not have the answer on this particular point! I can speculate.. but that's all it would be.

For your second question: It should be noted that this IS a much more muddled case with G. pardalis than it is with G. sulcata due to the wide variation in wild leopard habitats, where sulcatas have much more homogenous seasons and weather patterns through out their range. I was in and around Cape Town and George for about four months from late March to June. I keep my South African leopards in very similar conditions to what I observed in South Africa.

I cannot entirely agree with you. First, Cape Town is coastal and the conditions are really very different from those further inland where high density populations occur - and G. pardalis has an enormous range, including some really very arid areas indeed. Meantime, G. sulcata also has a large range, and is found in quite disparate humidity zones, from higher ranges in Senegal to some very seriously arid habitats indeed in Mali. IF humidity was the primary causal factor, we should expect to see a strong and direct correlation between the RH of the habitat and carapace formation. However - we simply do not. It is clearly more complex than that. We do tend to see that correlation to a much greater extent in captive situations - but then, there are also many other aggravating factors present. The point is, we do not see it consistently in the wild.

The people who wrote the books on sulcatas also researched the climate over there extensively. They erroneously based their care info on their incorrect assumptions. Leopard tortoise book writers did the same thing. Where did this gets us all? It got us two decades of horribly pyramided, dehydrated captive tortoises.

Some did, and some made errors by going on the basis of generalized data - not specific data. They also often suggested other aggravating methods of husbandry known to result in MBD related issues. Some. Not all. Some of those people have raised consistently excellent animals for decades.

SOOOOOooooooo, rather than focus on what can or can't be known about what happens in the wild, rather than trying to simulate what we think happens in the wild for leopards, since that tactic failed for decades

Again... you are concluding that it was the environment that was incorrect and discounting all other possibilities, including any possible combination of factors. I do not accept that. Everything I have learned on this topic indicates to me it is multi-factorial with environment playing a part, but by no means being the full story.

For nearly 20 years I, and everyone else failed to produce a smooth leopard or sulcata..

I think you are using "everyone else" rather too loosely in this context. Please refer to the CB G. pardalis in my photo (above). Perhaps you might wish to reconsider that statement. That one was CB and raised by myself from 1995 onwards. I have many similar photos in my files showing identical results using the very same methods.

Lastly, if you can raise a leopard or sulcata smooth and healthy in a dry environment, you are someone I would like to learn from. If you have done this, I would ask that rather than point out how I am wrong about this, that and the other thing, please demonstrate how you did it and show the results.

See above.

 

[Tom]

Just a few points of clarification/discussion:
1. While over there, I saw 6 wild ones, but I also saw about 300 in "captive" enclosures too. All of these were older animals and housed outside in large "naturalistic" enclosures. None of them were pyramided. Saw a lot of smooth Chersina too. Didn't see any hatchlings or yearlings. So we don't share the 15-20% view. I am also talking only about the southern "clades" (formerly referred to as a subspecies) while I think you have seen multiple clades and geographical populations. I can't say what exists in parts of Africa that I haven't been to, so I will take your word for it. Again, the tactic I recommend for you here rather than tell me or anybody else we are wrong, simply make your own thread and share what you have learned. You seem to have much experience and knowledge that could benefit tortoise keepers world wide. I ask you to share it in a positive way. You have found an outlet to do some good for the tortoises of the world. Use it.
2. In the case of sulcatas and the reported differences in microclimates: I propose that their fossorial predilections mitigate any above ground climactic factors. They can find whatever temp and humidity they desire depending on where in the burrow they sit and how the burrow is constructed. My friend Tomas is supposed to be releasing a new book soon that will have much more data on wild temps, humidity and recorded burrow conditions. This new book will add much to our discussions on these matters. THIS subject has had me confounded with leopards for some time. We are in agreement that at least some of the time, and in some areas, leopard habitat is dry. Why 80-85% of them DON'T pyramided (using your numbers here) is still a mystery that I cannot solve, because if housed similarly in captivity they do pyramid.
3. I have seen no one in this country "raising consistently excellent animals for decades". Not sulcatas and leopards anyway. I don't know how many tortoises and enclosures that you have seen over here in the US, but I have seen literally thousands dating back to 1991 when I first became involved with sulcatas and leopards. You may think what you wish of my "everyone else" statement, but I stand by it. Sure there are occasional single tortoise exceptions, but no one can or has produced dozens of sulcatas or leopard that ALL turn out smooth and healthy. I have. You showed one pic of one tortoise and we have no idea of that tortoises origin, history or care regime. I have showed 100s of pics and documented the progress of many tortoises from hatchling to more than three years and still running. Plus there are now dozens, maybe hundreds of similar cases right here on this forum that show the same thing.
4. Your single picture of a smooth leopard looks lovely. If your goal is to educate and help people, I would like to formally, in writing here, request you do a thread on that tortoise. Please show his hatchling photos, enclosure photos, and explain to us all the details of his diet and care parameters. Include weights and age and give us as much detail and as many pics as possible and pratical, so that we may examine and learn from your experience. If you have discovered a method of raising smooth leopards that differs from mine, there is not a single person here who would not like to understand it and learn from it. Hopefully some will be moved to attempt to duplicate your results. I would like to see several hatchlings raised together with your method and compare results. Showing a single stand alone photograph does not help your case, even if it is a nice picture of a smooth leopard from somewhere in the world.


Here is the bottom line for me: I don't know how much more plainly I can put it.
1. Dry doesn't work here. Not for me. Diet, temps and UV have not mattered in regards to leopards and sulcatas pyramiding or not. I have seen every variation attempted and also attempted many of these variations myself. If its a dry enclosure, indoors or out, the tortoise (leopards and sulcatas) pyramids. Conversely, I have seen many examples in Louisiana and FL of animals raised "incorrectly" or on incorrect diets still grow a smooth carapace due to hydration and humidity.
2. The warm, humid, hydrated methods that I have developed DO work here. They work everywhere else too. There are now examples from all over the entire globe of well hydrated smooth growing tortoise of many species. I have no doubt that some Testudo species can be raised smooth while relatively dry. Not debating that here.
3. Last time I'm gonna say it: I think studying the wild conditions and trying to figure out exactly what is going on here is an interesting, fun, and a praiseworthy pursuit. More knowledge and understanding is always a good thing and something we should all strive for. HOWEVER, North American captive conditions are NOT the wild and never will be. Lets not let our understanding of wild conditions, or lack there of, stand in the way of promoting sound, time tested, proven methods that work in our captive environments. And lets not lose sight of the decades long record of failure and the conditions that caused that failure.

No doubt you have more "field" experience than I do. That's not saying a lot since I have very little. If you wish to spend your time pointing out details that you think are incorrect about my speculations of what happens in the wild, that is fine with me, but I think your time could better be spent sharing what YOU DO know rather than jumping on to a forum and pointing out what others DON'T know.

 

[julietteq]

I have the feeling nobody knows at this point why tortoises pyramid more often in captivity then in the wild. Until we do, I feel it is important to take Tom's advise to make sure humidity levels are up in the torts home. Since Tom is so succesful raising his torts, there must be some link to water/humidity. Maybe the extreme humidity in captivity compensates for circumstances in the wild that are so in front of our face that we do not see it? I personallly thought the comment about the "sandblasting/wear and tear on the shell" was very interesting.

Lets compare it to humans, when you have a deskjob, your nails (ceratine) need clipping. However when we were hunter/gatherers I doubt we needed manicures! Your nails become brittle when you are in a bath and they break off very easy. Maybe that is what the humidity does. It makes the carapace soft so it wears down easier and thus prevents pyramiding?

PS: I assume we are all normal people and nobody will start "sanding" off their tortoise shells!!!!

 

[Tom]

I have the feeling nobody knows at this point why tortoises pyramid more often in captivity then in the wild. Until we do, I feel it is important to take Tom's advise to make sure humidity levels are up in the torts home. Since Tom is so succesful raising his torts, there must be some link to water/humidity. Maybe the extreme humidity in captivity compensates for circumstances in the wild that are so in front of our face that we do not see it? I personallly thought the comment about the "sandblasting/wear and tear on the shell" was very interesting.

Lets compare it to humans, when you have a deskjob, your nails (ceratine) need clipping. However when we were hunter/gatherers I doubt we needed manicures! Your nails become brittle when you are in a bath and they break off very easy. Maybe that is what the humidity does. It makes the carapace soft so it wears down easier and thus prevents pyramiding?

PS: I assume we are all normal people and nobody will start "sanding" off their tortoise shells!!!!

Good points and humor, and I agree.

I can't say what is going on or why with any certainty (and I have found no one else who can either), but it is very obvious now what does and doesn't work in a practical sense for keeping these species in our captive environments.

By all means, let's keep learning and studying and trying to improve, but let's NOT ignore what is obvious and right in front of us daily, because of what we think might be happening on another continent. I don't know why the sky is blue, or how to define "blue", or what physical factors make it blue, but my ignorance on the matter does not mean the sky ISN'T blue.

 

[Jacqui]

Testudoresearch, I just want to say how happy I am that have you have joined our forum and are sharing with us your experiences, thoughts and knowledge! Please do not stop.

 

[Testudoresearch]

Well, if I could just point out that the title of this thread is very clear. It is "What is the physiology behind pyramiding". That is precisely what I am here to address. I was referred to the forum by a colleague who does follow it and thought that it might be helpful if I contributed on this subject, as it is the topic of a new publication I have pending. Having viewed some of the comments on the topic, it is very clear to me that there is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding. All I really wish to do is to highlight some new information that does shed considerable light on the physiological mechanisms involved.

I do not believe endless anecdotes on husbandry, from me or anyone else, are really that productive in this context. It is far more to the point to try to understand exactly why and how this class of deformity really occurs. Once that is understood, it becomes much easier to determine appropriate husbandry. I do not feel that it is very satisfactory to advance specific husbandry advice when you cannot adequately explain why a particular method works (or not). Guessing is not the same as explaining. You must be able to present a viable mechanism. That must be credible from both biological and physiological perspectives. In short, it must make scientific sense. If it does not do so, then something is wrong or a piece of the puzzle is missing.

It is also not hugely productive to debate in great detail all the specific habitats used by tortoises on internet fora. The only reason I raised this is because many false assumptions are being made. In respect of G. pardalis, the prime habitat in SA is "semi-arid karoo veld". This has a specific meaning. I highly recommend anyone interested in finding out more for themselves to consult "Karoo Veld - Ecology & Management" by Milton and Dean (Fitzpatrick Institute, University of Cape Town). This provides a superb overview of the region, and even includes detailed precipitation and climatic maps that can be overlaid with tortoise distribution data. It is a very useful reference for anyone remotely interested in South African tortoises.

I included a photo of one of my tortoises simply because I was asked to. I have reared numerous examples, and I think this does show that very good growth can indeed be achieved without recourse to extreme measures and incredibly high levels of RH. Some have claimed this is not possible. I ask you to judge for yourselves. This one was photographed at 4 years of age. Not only does it look good, but bone mineral density was excellent, as confirmed by a dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry (DEXA) scan.

The problem is that you can have what appear to be very smooth tortoises externally, but which internally, have very poor bone mineral density - with fibrous lesions and poor mass. So, establishing the condition of bones generated under various husbandry regimes is absolutely critical. Yet, it is rarely done.

It is intriguing that so many keepers hold totally contradictory views on these matters. On the one hand, we have people who say that Leopard and Sulcata tortoises need this super high humidity regime, but Testudo do not... and then other keepers who enthusiastically argue the exact opposite. What I think many miss is that in the paper by Weisner and Iben (cited extensively by Richard Fife), they did not limit their argument to G. sulcata, but claimed it affected multiple species: "Many species of tortoises live most of their lives hidden either in caves (e.g. Testudo horsfieldii, Gopherus sp.) or on the ground surrounded by high humidity even during arid conditions”.

Unfortunately, this is plain wrong. It is useful they included Gopherus, because we have superb microclimate data for this species, including burrow humidity throughout the year. In the most detailed and comprehensive study yet carried out on Desert tortoise burrows in Nevada, Bulova (2002) established accurate environmental data for more than 70 individual burrows over an extended period and recorded burrow relative humidity levels ranging from 6.1 to 44.5%, compared to surface relative humidity levels of 4.1 to 32.2%. Other data, from other researchers in various localities for these species totally confirms this. This data conclusively destroys the argument that these tortoises experience sustained levels of RH above 80% in nature (the authors of that paper actually recommend provision of RH up to 100%!!)

There is no doubt, however, that humidity affects tortoises, and can influence the way in which a carapace develops. This is where physiology and ecology collide, and where the answers are to be found.

To do that we need to look closely at the physical structure of the tortoise skeleton and carapace, and in particular at the properties of the materials it is built from. How those materials respond to the environment, and to various mechanical stresses, is key to developing a viable explanation for the physiology of pyramiding.

I will shortly post some images of carapace sections for comparison and also explain what we have discovered concerning those interactions.

 

[Sulcata_Sandy]

Well, if I could just point out that the title of this thread is very clear. It is "What is the physiology behind pyramiding". That is precisely what I am here to address. I was referred to the forum by a colleague who does follow it and thought that it might be helpful if I contributed on this subject, as it is the topic of a new publication I have pending. Having viewed some of the comments on the topic, it is very clear to me that there is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding. All I really wish to do is to highlight some new information that does shed considerable light on the physiological mechanisms involved.

I do not believe endless anecdotes on husbandry, from me or anyone else, are really that productive in this context. It is far more to the point to try to understand exactly why and how this class of deformity really occurs. Once that is understood, it becomes much easier to determine appropriate husbandry. I do not feel that it is very satisfactory to advance specific husbandry advice when you cannot adequately explain why a particular method works (or not). Guessing is not the same as explaining. You must be able to present a viable mechanism. That must be credible from both biological and physiological perspectives. In short, it must make scientific sense. If it does not do so, then something is wrong or a piece of the puzzle is missing.

It is also not hugely productive to debate in great detail all the specific habitats used by tortoises on internet fora. The only reason I raised this is because many false assumptions are being made. In respect of G. pardalis, the prime habitat in SA is "semi-arid karoo veld". This has a specific meaning. I highly recommend anyone interested in finding out more for themselves to consult "Karoo Veld - Ecology & Management" by Milton and Dean (Fitzpatrick Institute, University of Cape Town). This provides a superb overview of the region, and even includes detailed precipitation and climatic maps that can be overlaid with tortoise distribution data. It is a very useful reference for anyone remotely interested in South African tortoises.

I included a photo of one of my tortoises simply because I was asked to. I have reared numerous examples, and I think this does show that very good growth can indeed be achieved without recourse to extreme measures and incredibly high levels of RH. Some have claimed this is not possible. I ask you to judge for yourselves. This one was photographed at 4 years of age. Not only does it look good, but bone mineral density was excellent, as confirmed by a dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry (DEXA) scan.

The problem is that you can have what appear to be very smooth tortoises externally, but which internally, have very poor bone mineral density - with fibrous lesions and poor mass. So, establishing the condition of bones generated under various husbandry regimes is absolutely critical. Yet, it is rarely done.

It is intriguing that so many keepers hold totally contradictory views on these matters. On the one hand, we have people who say that Leopard and Sulcata tortoises need this super high humidity regime, but Testudo do not... and then other keepers who enthusiastically argue the exact opposite. What I think many miss is that in the paper by Weisner and Iben (cited extensively by Richard Fife), they did not limit their argument to G. sulcata, but claimed it affected multiple species: "Many species of tortoises live most of their lives hidden either in caves (e.g. Testudo horsfieldii, Gopherus sp.) or on the ground surrounded by high humidity even during arid conditions”.

Unfortunately, this is plain wrong. It is useful they included Gopherus, because we have superb microclimate data for this species, including burrow humidity throughout the year. In the most detailed and comprehensive study yet carried out on Desert tortoise burrows in Nevada, Bulova (2002) established accurate environmental data for more than 70 individual burrows over an extended period and recorded burrow relative humidity levels ranging from 6.1 to 44.5%, compared to surface relative humidity levels of 4.1 to 32.2%. Other data, from other researchers in various localities for these species totally confirms this. This data conclusively destroys the argument that these tortoises experience sustained levels of RH above 80% in nature (the authors of that paper actually recommend provision of RH up to 100%!!)

There is no doubt, however, that humidity affects tortoises, and can influence the way in which a carapace develops. This is where physiology and ecology collide, and where the answers are to be found.

To do that we need to look closely at the physical structure of the tortoise skeleton and carapace, and in particular at the properties of the materials it is built from. How those materials respond to the environment, and to various mechanical stresses, is key to developing a viable explanation for the physiology of pyramiding.

I will shortly post some images of carapace sections for comparison and also explain what we have discovered concerning those interactions.

AMEN!

I've been a licensed Veterinary Technician 25 years, and extensive experience in reptiles, particularly tortoises. I cannot agree more. While a humid environment is helpful in production of smooth keratin growth, it is not the only factor.

I'm anxious to read more that you have on this subject.