What is powerful enough to gnaw through a sulcata tortoise shell

[westernstar]

Ok so I’m at the vet and trying not to freak out. I’m in Flagstaff AZ and pretty much live in Coconino Natl Forest so all the creatures that live in such a forest are always near. I went to his outdoor play pen and saw that one of his scutes has been pulled back. There was no noise , no disturbance to the soil or other things in the pen whatsoever. No wings flapping sounds .... Iyet the only thing I can think of are the hawks , eagles, cross or ravens. But what do you guys think? He was alone about 30 minutes. I thought my partner was with him but not the case.

 

[MichaelL]

Don't think this is from a bird.. It looks like a teeth mark.. Not sure what animal though, let's see what others say.

 

[westernstar]

Don't think this is from a bird.. It looks like a teeth mark.. Not sure what animal though, let's see what others say.

There’s been a juvenile Arizona Gray squirrel hanging around the yard lately. I know squirrels can crack an acorn but a shell?

 

[Maro2Bear]

Is it possible your tort tried to dig under something and got caught up on the shell? I doubt if some animal did this....not a bird or squirrel.

You prob did not need a vet visit. Looks pretty superficial. A good cleaning, disinfecting antiseptic cream...and all will be fine. Keep it clean do bugs don’t lay eggs. (Hard to see how deep the wound is).

 

[Tom]

Not something a bird could or would do.

If it were a dog or coyote or raccoon or bobcat, there would be opposing teeth marks. Are there any marks on the plastron or other side of the carapace?

Ground squirrel is a possibility. They are a rodent. Rodent translated: To chew or gnaw. Still I don't see the typical teeth marks from rodent teeth.

I agree with Mark's assessment. Does this tortoise have a burrow? Any rocks or metal in the enclosure for decorations or "furniture"? Can we see a pic of the area?

 

[Markw84]

I"ll third the impact/pressure break answer. I see no marks like it was chewed. I've seen plenty of rat damage to shells before and always see teeth marks and scrapes. This was from an impact or trying to squeeze under something with a hard sharp edge.

 

[westernstar]

Is it possible your tort tried to dig under something and got caught up on the shell? I doubt if some animal did this....not a bird or squirrel.

You prob did not need a vet visit. Looks pretty superficial. A good cleaning, disinfecting antiseptic cream...and all will be fine. Keep it clean do bugs don’t lay eggs. (Hard to see how deep the wound is).

You're probably right, It may very well be superficial as wounds go, but from my eyes I guess it's so shocking and horrifying it's like "omg half his shell is missing!" kind of feeling, you know? in the picture, if you zoom in to the white/pink area underneath where the shell surface was lifted, it looks to me like the black, nearly horizontal line is a break through into the hollow underneath his shell. The vet said that black area was a scratch, and again maybe it's my "tort parent's eyes" that see it worse than it is, but I swear to god it looks like a full break through. I don't know, I'm too partial. What do you think it is?

In any case, she trimmed off the part of the shell that was sticking up, as it was sticking up at about a 60 degree angle from where it should be. She salved it, patched it, and asked that I come back every 3 days for a patch swap, check up and a Ceftazidime antibacterial shot. I'm also to give him a daily meloxicom injection in his leg for pain/swelling.

Behaviorally, it's like nothing happened as far as he's concerned. When we got home he was hungry, so he ate most of one of his dishes of food, then trudged off to his log hut for the night. Other than it being 2 hours past his regular bedtime, it was like a typical day in that regard.

 

[westernstar]

Not something a bird could or would do.

If it were a dog or coyote or raccoon or bobcat, there would be opposing teeth marks. Are there any marks on the plastron or other side of the carapace?

Ground squirrel is a possibility. They are a rodent. Rodent translated: To chew or gnaw. Still I don't see the typical teeth marks from rodent teeth.

I agree with Mark's assessment. Does this tortoise have a burrow? Any rocks or metal in the enclosure for decorations or "furniture"? Can we see a pic of the area?

He's 10 months old and spends much of his time inside in his aquarium, where he has the typical hollowed log that he sleeps under. Outside, I've recreated a similar log hut using smaller logs to make a lean-to type thing. There is a branch knob on the inside of the lean-to that is right at that shell height where this damage occured, so the theory of it being abrasion damage makes sense, I'm trying to figure out why he would push up against this knob to the point of ripping his shell up however. Wouldn't he feel it and ... stop? I have no idea what it's like to have a shell or what sensation it gives when it's being scraped, but I imagine it would be sort of like a very thick "fingernail" that transmits some sort of sensation, but not in an acute / precise way (hope I'm making sense). I would like to think he would stop whenever he feel something scraping, even if the sensation were distant/dull but, I'm not a Tort and I have about 10 months experience with it all, so I defer to opinions of pros like yourself, Mark and many others.

He's not awake yet but when he comes around I'll get some pics of the opposite side of his shell, plastron and such. There is something that resembles teeth marks (again, from my subjective and horrified eyes) on the scute that's at his 1 oclock from his central top scute (near his right leg) that is in the picture that I shared previously , but it might be hard to see unless you zoom in at the right angle.

In the meantime, here is his enclosure. The screen on top goes on whenever I put him in there to offer more relief from the direct sun (which isn't usually an issue, I live under 6 gigantic pine trees which keeps it shady), and also was to help obscure him from any roving hawk eyes that might be passing over.

Thanks for your feedback on this everyone, I totally appreciate you!

 

[westernstar]

I"ll third the impact/pressure break answer. I see no marks like it was chewed. I've seen plenty of rat damage to shells before and always see teeth marks and scrapes. This was from an impact or trying to squeeze under something with a hard sharp edge.

Thanks Mark! Like I was just typing to Tom a few minutes ago, there is something that resembles teeth marks (again, from my subjective and horrified eyes) on the scute that's at his 1 oclock from his central top scute (near his right leg) that is in the picture that I shared previously , but it might be hard to see unless you zoom in at the right angle. See attached..

I can possibly see a squirrel sitting on top of him chewing away at that top central scute, since it has ridges and dimension enough to it that it might be enough for him to dig into with his teeth all on its own without having to chew on opposing sides of his shell. I would think that if a squirrel could cut through the edge of an acorn, the slight mound of a scute wouldn't be too challenging either.. but again, it's a thought I have with no actual knowledge or experience with what a squirrel can or can't do, so I'm open to the other theories as well. It's just so hard to believe a tort would just cut his shell up trying to shove his way under/around something, but from the way you're phrasing it, it sounds like they do that sometimes?

Thanks for your input!

 

[Yvonne G]

In answer to your question as to why he wouldn't stop when he felt resistence, that's why they're called bulldozers. They just keep pushing forward when they're stuck! There are many sulcata pictures on the web showing sulcatas dragging the bar b que or moving along with a patio chair or table on his back.

 

[ZenHerper]

Odd.

I wonder if he climbed up high and fell bottom-over-teakettle onto one of those rocks/bricks...

 

[Maro2Bear]

Torts, like Sullys, are like mini-bull dozers and just keep going and pushing and wedging themselves into spaces they want to get through. Thats how they are wired. Push hard enough, it will push over or down.

Our Sully pushed under a gate once....gate was low, Sully high. Sully kept pushing against the gate to plough underneath. Similar type of wound as your guy. I washed it, cleaned, topped it with neosporin for a few days.

Ps - you might want to remove the pine cones & pine logs. Pine usually not recommended to be in with torts. (Yes, some folks do, but lots of pine resin etc in those logs). You might want to get a good deep terra cotta plant saucer and position down into your substrate as a water dish.

Good luck. I’m sure your Sullys shell will be fine.

 

[Markw84]

Thanks Mark! Like I was just typing to Tom a few minutes ago, there is something that resembles teeth marks (again, from my subjective and horrified eyes) on the scute that's at his 1 oclock from his central top scute (near his right leg) that is in the picture that I shared previously , but it might be hard to see unless you zoom in at the right angle. See attached..

I can possibly see a squirrel sitting on top of him chewing away at that top central scute, since it has ridges and dimension enough to it that it might be enough for him to dig into with his teeth all on its own without having to chew on opposing sides of his shell. I would think that if a squirrel could cut through the edge of an acorn, the slight mound of a scute wouldn't be too challenging either.. but again, it's a thought I have with no actual knowledge or experience with what a squirrel can or can't do, so I'm open to the other theories as well. It's just so hard to believe a tort would just cut his shell up trying to shove his way under/around something, but from the way you're phrasing it, it sounds like they do that sometimes?

Thanks for your input!

Those sure don't look like teeth marks. Those that you circled are what it a scute will look like when there was some minor damage or irritation close to a scute seam when growing. The expanding scute fills in new kerating that has that wrinkled look creating weird ridges. Wathc how weird the scute that is damaged will look in about a year with very wrinkled and swirling keratin patterns as it tries to fill in the damaged area.

In looking at your enclosure - first thing is your sulcata needs way more room. They are very active tortoises - probably the most active of the tortoises. In such a small area it would be constantly trying to get out and can easily tip over. Upside-down they can normally flip themselves back over, but with considerable jerky leg waving. If it fell back on one of those very rough rock and then continued to jerk trying to get rocking to flip over, it could feasibly have caused that injury.

 

[westernstar]

Torts, like Sullys, are like mini-bull dozers and just keep going and pushing and wedging themselves into spaces they want to get through. Thats how they are wired. Push hard enough, it will push over or down.

Our Sully pushed under a gate once....gate was low, Sully high. Sully kept pushing against the gate to plough underneath. Similar type of wound as your guy. I washed it, cleaned, topped it with neosporin for a few days.

Ps - you might want to remove the pine cones & pine logs. Pine usually not recommended to be in with torts. (Yes, some folks do, but lots of pine resin etc in those logs). You might want to get a good deep terra cotta plant saucer and position down into your substrate as a water dish.

Good luck. I’m sure your Sullys shell will be fine.

Good observations! Will do with the pine logs/cones.

 

[westernstar]

Those sure don't look like teeth marks. Those that you circled are what it a scute will look like when there was some minor damage or irritation close to a scute seam when growing. The expanding scute fills in new kerating that has that wrinkled look creating weird ridges. Wathc how weird the scute that is damaged will look in about a year with very wrinkled and swirling keratin patterns as it tries to fill in the damaged area.

In looking at your enclosure - first thing is your sulcata needs way more room. They are very active tortoises - probably the most active of the tortoises. In such a small area it would be constantly trying to get out and can easily tip over. Upside-down they can normally flip themselves back over, but with considerable jerky leg waving. If it fell back on one of those very rough rock and then continued to jerk trying to get rocking to flip over, it could feasibly have caused that injury.

Thanks for that info on the kerating! Interesting stuff! On his enclosure, that's not really a permanent enclosure of any type. He's 10 months old, about 4.5 inches long / 385 grams, so he spends most of his time inside in his aquarium in the heat lamp/ humidity climate. We put him in the kiddie pool primarily to get some fresh air and catch some UV's. Once he's big enough to hang out outside all of the time, he has a 1 acre "playpen".. the entire back yard! Already spoiled rotten!!

 

[Sleppo]

In answer to your question as to why he wouldn't stop when he felt resistence, that's why they're called bulldozers. They just keep pushing forward when they're stuck! There are many sulcata pictures on the web showing sulcatas dragging the bar b que or moving along with a patio chair or table on his back.

So true, bulldozers indeed. One of my girls ripped up a huge chunk in one day a year ago and it’s still not completely grown back, this was from her simply digging under a rock.

 

[Chefdenoel10]

So true, bulldozers indeed. One of my girls ripped up a huge chunk in one day a year ago and it’s still not completely grown back, this was from her simply digging under a rock. View attachment 298447

gorgeous!