What do they say to each other ?

[Geochelone_Carbonaria]

Hi everybody!
I've been a member for a couple of months, but have just been following the threads in here...
I have five Redfoots in different ages, and they "talk" a lot to each other. There is a lot to read about when the male and female talk to each other, mostly before and during mating. But what I cannot find anywhere in he books is when the females talk to each other, and mine talk quite A LOT to each other ! What I would like to know is if there is some research in this area, and if anyone have found out what the females actually talk about ? I guess it's not about which one of the males they fancy most, or what they're gonna wear tonight ? But seriously, have anyone got the same experience ?
Please share your knowledge!
(Sorry if there is some bad english in the text, since I'm Swedish)
/Mike

 

[Madkins007]

What exactly do you mean by 'talk'? The clucking and grunting noises they make do not seem to be actual conversation, but noises that signal what is going on to others.

You have a 77 year-old Red-foot? If you can prove that, I am really impressed!

 

[Geochelone_Carbonaria]

What I mean is when they lie close to each other and move their head from side to side and up and down. First one of them, then the other, then both at the same time and so on and so on. And this can go on for hours sometimes...

Oh yes, he/she is 77 years old, I've got it all documented ! It's actually the one on my avatar, and I call this one Dame Edna, since I cannot find out if it's a he or a she... You see, it's no longer productive, and is not doing one or the other anymore. But that one is not a Cherryhead like the other four ones, it's more like one coming from "North" ? Yellow head, yellow feet and a very yellow plastron too with like an "exclamation mark". But the plastron has become very polished during all those years, so it's hard to tell the original pattern...

 

[LindaF]

WOW! 77 years old, I am impressed!

 

[matt41gb]

Give us a plastron shot and we can tell you its gender.

-Matt

 

[Geochelone_Carbonaria]

There is no idea to start guessing folks, since my breeder (with +50 years of experience of Redfoots) that had it before me could not be sure. He said it was more human than tortoise, since it's so very social. My own guess would have been a male by its tail, but the overall shape and behaviour of it says female. And I don't need to know actually. I'm just glad I've got it. It's history is really interesting... Imagine yourself, born in 1933, just like my father, unbelievable !!!

But back to my original question then ? Noone that has got anything to say about "tortoise chat" ?

 

[matt41gb]

Males will communicate with head bobbing, biting, and a little ramming. It's all part of getting the female to reciprocate to his breeding demands. There is no talking, or chatting. They do not have a higher brain function that allows them to physically speak to one another. It's up to you if you don't want to know the gender of your tortoise, but we could tell you for sure with just a few simple pictures.

-Matt

 

[Geochelone_Carbonaria]

I know all about what you wrote already, and I was asking for something else, but apparently noone knows about any research or have any experience in the subject. Sad

And speaking about my Dame Edna, no I'm actually not interested to know its gender. It's very happy together with my other redfoots and haven't laid an egg or even tried to mount any known female for the last 20 years. It's a happy tortoise and thats all I need to know !

 

[matt41gb]

Well, if that didn't answer your question then I have no idea what you're asking dude. If you know all about it already, then why did you ask? Tortoises can't talk.

-Matt

 

[Madkins007]

Head bobbing can be a couple different things.

A tortoise at rest bobs its head as it breathes. Since they do not have a diaphragm, they breathe by using other muscles to move air, including 'sagging' their shoulder and bobbing their heads.

Throat pumping is a sign they are investigating a smell, forcing air past their Jacobsen's Organ, etc. Head bobbing and movement often accompanies this.

A formal pattern of head movements, including bobbing and shaking, is part of the species recognition ritual that precedes mating, combat, etc.

In none of these cases does information seem to be being exchanged, although the scenting bit might include something as Red-foots are known to use scent markers.

There may also be some communication happening at a subsonic level. Desert Tortoises are known to generate subsonic sounds that travel miles and are also known to be sensitive to these signals. We do not know what sort of information, if any, is carried in these communications... but then again, we are not real sure what whales and porpoises are saying and we spend a lot of time and money on that.

If Dame Edna is indeed properly documented at 77 years old, it may make her/him one of the oldest known Red-foots alive. Sadly, it is hard to PROVE that a tortoise on one piece of paper is the same one you see 77 years later (most longevity records are suspect for that reason), and the fact it was kept by a breeder for a long time makes it trickier- the more tortoises one handles, the more chances for error.

You also have to forgive people their curiosity. You claim to have a really old Red-foot, and of course people will get curious and want to know more, then get even more curious when it seems you are being mysterious. In 77 years, it has never been sexed or actually mated- this seems... odd, and makes us even MORE curious.

By the way, your screen name should be Geochelone caRbonaria- if you have the chance to get it corrected.

 

[Yourlocalpoet]

Tortoises can't talk.

-Matt

Ha ha. Sorry, I'm not sure why this amuses me, but it does.

 

[matt41gb]

Tortoises can't talk.

-Matt

Ha ha. Sorry, I'm not sure why this amuses me, but it does.

Haha! It amuses me too now that I look back at it. Hahahaha! Always good to know you made someone laugh.

-Matt

 

[terryo]

I think we all would love to see some pictures of this 77 year old tortoise. Couldn't you please be kind enough to humor us and show us some pictures? Please??? We are all here for the same reason ...to learn and help each other. None of us here has seen one this old, and would so love to see it ...up close.

 

[Geochelone_Carbonaria]

Well, if that didn't answer your question then I have no idea what you're asking dude. If you know all about it already, then why did you ask? Tortoises can't talk.

-Matt

I said I knew all about what YOU wrote already, I was asking if anyone knew if there was any research made in the area of "talking" or "communication" between redfoots or if any of you had any experience in the subject ?

But it looks like that is a bit to advanced for some of you in here ?

And by the way, I'm not your "dude", dude !

---

Head bobbing can be a couple different things.

A tortoise at rest bobs its head as it breathes. Since they do not have a diaphragm, they breathe by using other muscles to move air, including 'sagging' their shoulder and bobbing their heads.

Throat pumping is a sign they are investigating a smell, forcing air past their Jacobsen's Organ, etc. Head bobbing and movement often accompanies this.

A formal pattern of head movements, including bobbing and shaking, is part of the species recognition ritual that precedes mating, combat, etc.

In none of these cases does information seem to be being exchanged, although the scenting bit might include something as Red-foots are known to use scent markers.

There may also be some communication happening at a subsonic level. Desert Tortoises are known to generate subsonic sounds that travel miles and are also known to be sensitive to these signals. We do not know what sort of information, if any, is carried in these communications... but then again, we are not real sure what whales and porpoises are saying and we spend a lot of time and money on that.

If Dame Edna is indeed properly documented at 77 years old, it may make her/him one of the oldest known Red-foots alive. Sadly, it is hard to PROVE that a tortoise on one piece of paper is the same one you see 77 years later (most longevity records are suspect for that reason), and the fact it was kept by a breeder for a long time makes it trickier- the more tortoises one handles, the more chances for error.

You also have to forgive people their curiosity. You claim to have a really old Red-foot, and of course people will get curious and want to know more, then get even more curious when it seems you are being mysterious. In 77 years, it has never been sexed or actually mated- this seems... odd, and makes us even MORE curious.

By the way, your screen name should be Geochelone caRbonaria- if you have the chance to get it corrected.

Finally something that looks like an intelligent answer...thanks Madkins007!

I had no intention whatsoever to "show off" with my old tortoise, and I have made a promise to one of my best friends that also happen to be a Swedish breeder, that I should keep a low profile on this. I know why he told me that now, and there is nothing mysterious about it at all. I don't know a lot about your breeders, but the few ones we've got here in Sweden is honest and they are not interested in making too much business of it. So I have no doubt whatsoever that Edna is 77 years old. I have the proof, it's a happy tort and that's all I need to know. Take it or leave it...sorry!

---

Tortoises can't talk.

-Matt

Ha ha. Sorry, I'm not sure why this amuses me, but it does.

Haha! It amuses me too now that I look back at it. Hahahaha! Always good to know you made someone laugh.

-Matt

Ye, right !

I had a feeling when I wrote this first thread of mine, that it might be to stick my head into a wasps nest, and thanks to you "dude" it looks like I was right from the very begining!

So you folks just crawl back to where you was before, since it looks like 90% of all your threads is about the same subjects over and over and over and over agin and again...

Sick hatchlings (that is dying since you can't take care of them)
Too dry or too humid
Too cold or too warm
Eating poop (!)
Cypress Mulch

So if that is the subjects you want to discuss at your level of intelligence, be my guest !

---

I think we all would love to see some pictures of this 77 year old tortoise. Couldn't you please be kind enough to humor us and show us some pictures? Please??? We are all here for the same reason ...to learn and help each other. None of us here has seen one this old, and would so love to see it ...up close.

Hi terryo,

I just want to say that I'm really glad that you wrote in my thread, since I've been a great "fan" of your lovely vivariums, and you have actually been an inspiration when I decorated my two large vivariums where I keep my current five redfoots. Thank you !

I'm also very sorry to say that this will probably be both my first and my last thread in this forum. I was trying to bring up a subject that is really interesting if you study your redfoots, like I use to do. I can sit for hours in front of the vivariums and look at my torts talking or communicating or whatever you want to call it ? (Remember I'm Swedish, so maybe I choose the wrong term and had difficulties to express what I wanted to ask!) But it seems that it was of no interest, sadly.

And as I wrote as an answer to another member here, this was like putting my head into a wasps nest, and I had no intention of bringing my 77 year old Edna up for discussion and that's it !

And since some of the "dudes" here think that it's so very funny that they even laugh at it, when someone brings up a question about communication between animals that have lived on this planet for several million years, then I understand that this really was a mistake. And even if I know that there is a lot of you in here that has a lot of experience and are serious, the bad apples has made up my mind.

So I'm really sorry terryo, this could have been a great forum for me to discuss and share my own knowledge and experience as a Swedish breeder with more than 25 years of experience of raising redfoots in Sweden (with so far 747 eggs). But this was a mistake and I will never post anything in here ever again, sorry.

Bye
/Mike

 

[PeanutbuttER]

What? I read through this and have been following this and thought that everyone was quite fair. Geochelone_Cabonaria, this is a forum for open discussion, not a wasp nests. I hope that you can see that nobody was openly mocking you or giving you outright wrong answers. Everybody answered your questions in the exact way you asked for. This is an open forum where people talk primarily from experience, so you're going to get a variety of responses from a variety of standpoints. I don't understand why this would be surprising, but if you were offended then let me be the first to say that I'm sorry you were offended.

I also don't see why you would be so unwilling to share pictures of your redfoot? All we would do is say "Oh WOW, that is the coolest thing I've seen in a while. I've never seen anything like it! Its amazing how old they can get." I don't understand why your breeder friend would choose to make you hide your tort, especially from a forum of like-minded individuals. However, if you don't want to share pictures then that's fine but it just doesn't make sense to a group of people who are generally quite open about sharing pictures of their torts.

You sound like you do have a lot of experience and we'd love to hear more from you. We have several redfoot breeders who are regular members here and who would be especially interested in hearing more about your experiences from you. If you feel like all the threads are about the same topics, then that is all the more reason for you to stay and continue to ask questions that haven't been answered yet Be the change you want to see.

 

[Yourlocalpoet]

Oh dear, am I really being told off for finding it funny that Matt felt the need to reiterate that tortoises can't talk?
Geochelone_Cabonaria/Mike, that was quite easily the most defamatory and conceited post I've ever read.

 

[Madkins007]

Geochelone_cabonaria, I do hope you come back to visit- it is always nice to see people from other places and discuss/share information. Personally, I am fascinated by how Europeans approach reptile husbandry.

As a moderator, however, I do need to remind posters that we are here to discuss issues, not personalities.

 

[jackrat]

I have the answer you seek.I have spent much time deciphering what they are saying.It's mostly along the lines of,"how was that poop you ate earlier?". "Oh, it was delightful,think it will rain today" "I don't know,it is a little cloudy" Just mundane talk,for the most part.Hope I answered your question,Dude.

 

[terryo]

I have the answer you seek.I have spent much time deciphering what they are saying.It's mostly along the lines of,"how was that poop you ate earlier?". "Oh, it was delightful,think it will rain today" "I don't know,it is a little cloudy" Just mundane talk,for the most part.Hope I answered your question,Dude.

ROTFLMAO......OMG! I can't stop...I'm sorry.

Mike....No one here means to offend you. We have so many people on this forum from all over the world. Everyone posts pictures...everyone. I'm glad you enjoyed my pictures of all my vivariums, and I'm glad they were an inspiration for you, so now I would love to see some of yours.

 

[matt41gb]

Geochelone_Cabonaria, I'm sorry that I offended you. I am really someone who does not like conflict, even on a simple discussion forum. I thought that I had clearly answered your question and may have been a little irritated that it wasn't good enough. I definitely am not the authority on red-foot conversation and I assumed that you knew that they couldn't physically talk. I was very confused at what you were getting at. I hope that we can move past this and start over.

-Matt