Tortoise Arthritis

[reptylefreek]

I've asked this before and at the time I wasn't really satisfied with the response I recieved, so I've waited and Im gonna try again.

I have an adult leopard tort. Her previous owner had her for seven years and kept her on a hard wood floor. Because of the flooring, she basically swam around the house instead of walk. This caused her to develop splay leg. Best way to picture this if you've never seen it, think of a toddler laying on their stomach slightly propped up with their arms, and their legs stuck out behind them. She doesn't seem to be too greatly affected by this now, but when she first came to me a year ago, she had trouble walking on normal ground. Could this cause joint or bone problems for her in the future or could she be suffering now? We all know tortoises are silent sufferers. I've added some pictures. Any input is welcome. Also, if torts can have joint or bone problems, is there anything I can do (besides calcium, thats a given)? Tort asprin, or pain reliever?

 

[Missy]

Awww poor thing. Very good questions and I hope someone can help. The only thing I can tell you is when I got Lana my Sulcata she could hardly walk do to MBD. I have no idea how she was kept. I have been feeding her a great diet and calcium. I walk her up and down the sidewalk every day to help build her strength. I believe the walking has helped her greatly, she now walks much faster and no longer wobbles in her back legs. If your tort does have arthritis I would think that keeping the temps right and lots of walking would help.

 

[Yourlocalpoet]

I don't have an answer for your question, sorry, but I'm curious as to what it looks like when she walks? Can she stand up and support her own weight? Can she gain speed when walking?
Your tortoise must have lived her whole life on a hardwood floor for the problem to be so prominent, did she not have any sort of enclosure at all? I can honestly say I've never seen my leopard struggle even on slippery floors, which I can only assume is down to the grip she has with her long nails.

 

[reptylefreek]

Missy: see and I thought the opposite. I make sure she is active and walks around and gets exercise but with humans, walking is painful when you have arthritis, so i was wondering if they can have arthitis, if its as painful.

Poet: She can support her weight fine now. When i first recieved her she would lift herself and walk with her legs behind her. Now its much better but still awkward. Im assuming she started out fine on hard wood, but after awhile her muscles had to adapt to being used a little different. She really looked like a frog swimming on the floor when she walked on the hardwood. All of her legs were splayed out because she couldn't support herself anymore. Now also, a contributing factor could always be diet or lack of it which could cause her to become unhealthy. Which doesn't support healthy growth.

When I recieved her, her former owner (who is a family friend) adamently told me "dont feed alot of fruit". I know this and when she gave me the let over food she had for her, it was alot of apple (which she got everyday), alot of bell pepper, carrots and romaine and spring mix. I use romaine for hydration purposes if i feel she isn't drinking enough, but I cut out ALL fruit for almost a whole year (because of her extremely unhealthy looking poop) before I started feeding her some cactus and cactus fruit and a few other things, but have been trying to wean her off of store bought greens to grasses and hays. She has really been a work progress, trying to get her to gain a little weight and be a little healthier. I feel like she is almost at where she should be at minus the worry about her legs and hoping to get her to a heavier weight.

 

[Yourlocalpoet]

Missy: see and I thought the opposite. I make sure she is active and walks around and gets exercise but with humans, walking is painful when you have arthritis, so i was wondering if they can have arthitis, if its as painful.

Poet: She can support her weight fine now. When i first recieved her she would lift herself and walk with her legs behind her. Now its much better but still awkward. Im assuming she started out fine on hard wood, but after awhile her muscles had to adapt to being used a little different. She really looked like a frog swimming on the floor when she walked on the hardwood. All of her legs were splayed out because she couldn't support herself anymore. Now also, a contributing factor could always be diet or lack of it which could cause her to become unhealthy. Which doesn't support healthy growth.

When I recieved her, her former owner (who is a family friend) adamently told me "dont feed alot of fruit". I know this and when she gave me the let over food she had for her, it was alot of apple (which she got everyday), alot of bell pepper, carrots and romaine and spring mix. I use romaine for hydration purposes if i feel she isn't drinking enough, but I cut out ALL fruit for almost a whole year (because of her extremely unhealthy looking poop) before I started feeding her some cactus and cactus fruit and a few other things, but have been trying to wean her off of store bought greens to grasses and hays. She has really been a work progress, trying to get her to gain a little weight and be a little healthier. I feel like she is almost at where she should be at minus the worry about her legs and hoping to get her to a heavier weight.

I sincerely hope it is just a case of her needing to build up her leg muscles, which I assume the more exercise the better the benefit. Do her legs feel strong?

 

[reptylefreek]

extremely.

 

[Missy]

Missy: see and I thought the opposite. I make sure she is active and walks around and gets exercise but with humans, walking is painful when you have arthritis, so i was wondering if they can have arthitis, if its as painful.

Poet: She can support her weight fine now. When i first recieved her she would lift herself and walk with her legs behind her. Now its much better but still awkward. Im assuming she started out fine on hard wood, but after awhile her muscles had to adapt to being used a little different. She really looked like a frog swimming on the floor when she walked on the hardwood. All of her legs were splayed out because she couldn't support herself anymore. Now also, a contributing factor could always be diet or lack of it which could cause her to become unhealthy. Which doesn't support healthy growth.

When I recieved her, her former owner (who is a family friend) adamently told me "dont feed alot of fruit". I know this and when she gave me the let over food she had for her, it was alot of apple (which she got everyday), alot of bell pepper, carrots and romaine and spring mix. I use romaine for hydration purposes if i feel she isn't drinking enough, but I cut out ALL fruit for almost a whole year (because of her extremely unhealthy looking poop) before I started feeding her some cactus and cactus fruit and a few other things, but have been trying to wean her off of store bought greens to grasses and hays. She has really been a work progress, trying to get her to gain a little weight and be a little healthier. I feel like she is almost at where she should be at minus the worry about her legs and hoping to get her to a heavier weight.

I sincerely hope it is just a case of her needing to build up her leg muscles, which I assume the more exercise the better the benefit. Do her legs feel strong?

I wish thats all it is but she was in bad shape. She does have MBD and is caved in at the hips. She has pyramiding pretty bad too. Her legs are strong now and she holds herself up and walks great now.

---

Missy: see and I thought the opposite. I make sure she is active and walks around and gets exercise but with humans, walking is painful when you have arthritis, so i was wondering if they can have arthitis, if its as painful.

Poet: She can support her weight fine now. When i first recieved her she would lift herself and walk with her legs behind her. Now its much better but still awkward. Im assuming she started out fine on hard wood, but after awhile her muscles had to adapt to being used a little different. She really looked like a frog swimming on the floor when she walked on the hardwood. All of her legs were splayed out because she couldn't support herself anymore. Now also, a contributing factor could always be diet or lack of it which could cause her to become unhealthy. Which doesn't support healthy growth.

When I recieved her, her former owner (who is a family friend) adamently told me "dont feed alot of fruit". I know this and when she gave me the let over food she had for her, it was alot of apple (which she got everyday), alot of bell pepper, carrots and romaine and spring mix. I use romaine for hydration purposes if i feel she isn't drinking enough, but I cut out ALL fruit for almost a whole year (because of her extremely unhealthy looking poop) before I started feeding her some cactus and cactus fruit and a few other things, but have been trying to wean her off of store bought greens to grasses and hays. She has really been a work progress, trying to get her to gain a little weight and be a little healthier. I feel like she is almost at where she should be at minus the worry about her legs and hoping to get her to a heavier weight.

My aunt has arthritis in all her joints and she walks and stays active. She says if she just sits it gets really hard to move. She says she has to keep moving to help keep her joints working. I have it in my hands and when I wake up in the morning it is painful to grip until I start using them and work it out. The cold also makes my hands ache. That is what I was going on when I said walking and heat might help. Keep us posted on your tort.

 

[Yourlocalpoet]

extremely.

Hmm, well I know dog's get arthritis as humans do with old age, but I thought it was considered as general wear and tear if you like so I'm not sure how the joints would be inflamed in your tortoise even if she did have a terrible time trying to walk on them, (or not walk on them as the case seems to be). Birds get splay legged but I think it only affects them because they can't perch properly, I would say that if your tortoise is walking and her legs feel strong she probably isn't in pain.
You could get her legs x rayed to see if there was any inflammation/joint damage though if you are very concerned?

Hope you find the answer you're looking for.

 

[Yourlocalpoet]

extremely.

Hmm, well I know dog's get arthritis as humans do with old age, but I thought it was considered as general wear and tear if you like so I'm not sure how the joints would be inflamed in your tortoise even if she did have a terrible time trying to walk on them, (or not walk on them as the case seems to be). Birds get splay legged but I think it only affects them because they can't perch properly, I would say that if your tortoise is walking and her legs feel strong she probably isn't in pain.
You could get her legs x rayed to see if there was any inflammation/joint damage though if you are very concerned?

Hope you find the answer you're looking for.

 

[Laura]

yep.. xrays to see what kind of damage.. Id be very careful with giving her any sort of pain reliever.. find a good reptile vet..

 

[reptylefreek]

Laura: i would NEVER self perscribe my tort unless it was a simple topical solution...lol

Poet: Good point. I dont have any arthritis so i guess i was thinking bad to over use the area. I do notice when she gets up in the morning she looks sore. She moves very slowly for the first hour. And i also have been on here about her legs getting "stuck", but its more like she tucks her knees so far in, the that might inflame when she sleeps and doesn't move them and they get stuck in her shell. Makes sence now.

So that means that there is a good chance that torts might develop their own version of arthritis because its normal wear and tear on the joints?

 

[Madkins007]

Reptiles really don't get arthritis, but there are a few things I am concerned about here.

1. If it grew up on a slick surface, the hips and some other joints do not develop correctly. We used to see this a lot on torts raised on newspaper.

2. Metabolic bone disorder, especially the nutritional-based version, can cause deformities of ALL bones, not just the shell. The shell is flattened, etc.- signs of something more serious than just pyramiding.

3. Shell deformities and other conditions can put a lot of pressure on the spine and cause nerve problems for the limbs, especially the hind limbs.

I bring these up because I think you need X-rays to see what is really going on in there. The results should help you and your vet determine a helpful course of treatment.

 

[reptylefreek]

The really screwed up thing about this is the previous owner works at an emergency vet and got x rays multiple times. I'm really starting to wonder if the tortoises' health was deteriorating very slowly and this is why she, after 7 years, gave her away. I was asking local tort owners who they have gone to because I want a vet who has seen torts frequently over the years, but got no responses. Guess I'll just have to get on the list here on the forum and start interviewing vets.

I will have to take some close up pictures of her knees because I do feel they are either deformed or have joint swelling. All i want is for her to be able to live happy while she is still alive. I really think her "lifestyle" has dramatically decreased her life span. Very sad. I also noticed just recently her lack of a dome shell. Her shell does not have the same characteristics as other leopards.