They're forcing my hand...

[GeoTerraTestudo]

I got my Russian tortoise pair in April, and wasn't planning on brumating them until next winter. However, here we are in late October, and despite being indoors, my tortoises remain buried in the substrate and haven't come out to eat, drink, or eliminate waste in weeks.

They seem to be trying to brumate, and it seems easy enough to leave them be, but I am concerned. If they don't eat, won't they go through their fat reserves faster at room temperature than at 40°F? For a while there I was digging them out every weekend to bathe and feed them. It seemed a bit mean, but I thought it was the right thing to do, and indeed they did respond for a day or two, but then they went right back under.

I wasn't planning on doing it yet, but should I put them in the refrigerator and formally brumate them in this winter?

 

[kimber_lee_314]

How warm are you keeping them, and how many hours of light are they getting?

 

[fgately]

I got my three RTs at approximately the same time you did, last year. I went ahead and let them hibernate that following summer. I knew that this was not recommended but all three of them seemed to be eating voraciously for several months and it was obvious they were growing and were noticeably fatter. My three were left to free roam and eat in my backyard for those months by the way. Although I was a bit worried, they hibernated just fine in my garage. I took them out just to check them and give them a good soak three or four times. They looked fine, so I would just dry them off and then put them back down in the box.

As I know this will be a future question you will have, the torts let you know when they are ready to come out of hibernation. Mine start shuffling around in the box when they are ready. I gave them a good soak, and let them start eating.

Thankfully here in the LA area, our winters are not that cold so they do very well outside in the garage for the winter. I have heard about the refrigerator idea but am thankful I don't have to do that for mine. I always thought it would be fun to play a prank on a friend if had to hibernate my torts in the fridge. "Hey, you guys come on over for dinner. Bring the kids. I'm making something special." Could be a good joke!

 

[Torty Mom]

Frank that would be a priceless joke!!! One you all would remember for years!!

 

[Tom]

THAT would be hilarious Frank!

GTT, to answer your question, yes, they will burn through their fat reserves too quickly at room temp. Yours is a question we Californians frequently have to grapple with. It does get colder here, but not THAT cold, and not consistently cold either. We have 80-90 degree weeks every once in awhile throughout winter. The solution I have found is the same as Frank. After a gradual cool down period of two or three weeks of warm temps, shortening daylight hours, daily soaks, and no food, I box up my animals and put them on the cold concrete slab in my garage. That keeps them right around 50-55 all winter long and that has been cool enough for me. If I had russians, I'd probably run a fridge and set it at 45. I usually hibernate from about right now until mid-March. When I wake them I give them a few days in their enclosure with no heat or light, just room temp. I start daily soaks again, but with cooler water to start with. Usually on the second or third day I'll turn a basking bulb on for a few hours. Depending on their behavior, I'll go ahead and give them more and more heat and basking hours. After a week or two, I'll offer a small amount of food. From there, I just go by "feel", until they are back up and running at normal speed.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

How warm are you keeping them, and how many hours of light are they getting?

Our home is in the 60's at night, and in the 70's during the day, with a hot spot in the 90's. In other words, it's not much different than it was during the summer (except it got into the low 80's sometimes).

They have CHEs for heat, and a Repti Glo 2.0 Full Spectrum Terrarium Lamp that is on from 7am-9pm (14 hours). However, I think they perceive that real daylight is getting shorter, and are using this as a cue to start brumating.

---

GTT, to answer your question, yes, they will burn through their fat reserves too quickly at room temp ...

Okay, sounds like I have to brumate them properly then. Time to start reading up on the hibernation threads.

 

[dmmj]

If they are not cold enough to bruminate, yet not warm enough to eat properly, then they will just sort of waste away, using their reserves to sustain their life.

One thing I have learned over the years is that no matter how hard you try sometimes, they will still just want to hibernate.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

If they are not cold enough to bruminate, yet not warm enough to eat properly, then they will just sort of waste away, using their reserves to sustain their life.

One thing I have learned over the years is that no matter how hard you try sometimes, they will still just want to hibernate.

Okay, hibernation in the fridge it is then.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

I weighed Mork and Mindy this morning, and they are both about 50% above the minimum hibernation weight, according to the Donohue Equation, so that's good. I also bathed them, and only urates came out - no feces - so their digestive tracts also appear to be evacuated, which is also good. I think I will give them one more week, and then let them brumate in the fridge. I am still providing them with light, but their CHEs are off now to let them ease into their cooling down period a bit more. Two more questions, though:

1) The optimal temperature for a food refrigerator is 35-38°F, but tortoises need to brumate at 40-45°F. If I hibernate my tortoises in our refrigerator crisper, won't our food spoil?

2) What is the ideal hibernation substrate? I have read that a lot of people use newspaper, which I can easily do as well. However, my tortoises have 100% coco coir in their pens. Should I use that as their hibernation substrate instead?

 

[Tom]

You need a dedicated, separate fridge, set at the right temp for them. It would not be good to be opening the fridge door ten times a day while they are hibernating.

I like to use dry "sani-chips" as a hibernation substrate. I have also used dry coco chips at times. They can dig down in these easier, and seem to like it.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

You need a dedicated, separate fridge, set at the right temp for them. It would not be good to be opening the fridge door ten times a day while they are hibernating.

I like to use dry "sani-chips" as a hibernation substrate. I have also used dry coco chips at times. They can dig down in these easier, and seem to like it.

Okay, check that. I just bought a mini fridge today, so I will make sure it stays in the right temperature range over the coming week before I let them start hibernating in it this weekend.

Tom, I believe you stated that 45°F was the ideal hibernation temperature. However, here is a passage from an article titled, "The Hibernation Journey," by Shelly Jones from http://russiantortoise.net/hibernation_journey.htm

"It is said that at the 39 - 41 range the tortoise will lose very little weight. At temperatures higher or lower the tortoise will dig either upward to reach colder temperatures or downward to reach warmer temperatures as the soil gradient occurs in nature. This causes an energy expenditure which should be minimized as much as possible."

What do you make of this?

 

[Az tortoise compound]

THAT would be hilarious Frank!

GTT, to answer your question, yes, they will burn through their fat reserves too quickly at room temp. Yours is a question we Californians frequently have to grapple with. It does get colder here, but not THAT cold, and not consistently cold either. We have 80-90 degree weeks every once in awhile throughout winter. The solution I have found is the same as Frank. After a gradual cool down period of two or three weeks of warm temps, shortening daylight hours, daily soaks, and no food, I box up my animals and put them on the cold concrete slab in my garage. That keeps them right around 50-55 all winter long and that has been cool enough for me. If I had russians, I'd probably run a fridge and set it at 45. I usually hibernate from about right now until mid-March. When I wake them I give them a few days in their enclosure with no heat or light, just room temp. I start daily soaks again, but with cooler water to start with. Usually on the second or third day I'll turn a basking bulb on for a few hours. Depending on their behavior, I'll go ahead and give them more and more heat and basking hours. After a week or two, I'll offer a small amount of food. From there, I just go by "feel", until they are back up and running at normal speed.

What species are you referring to here?

 

[lynnedit]

Horsfields, I believe.
(I am following this thread with interest)

 

[Lulu]

I think he was asking Tom what species he had hibernated because he said "If I had russians..."

My husband's russians will hibernate in short bursts and wake up for short periods to eat. We haven't had trouble with our warmer winter weather. I don't know if it would be similar in a state that actually has a winter climate if you tried to keep them warm, i.e., a short attempt at a hibernation followed by more normal warm weather behavior. Unfortunately, I have no experience at attempting a true hibernation. However, we haven't seen the forecasted potential dire effects of allowing them to hibernate without extremely cold temperatures. They seem to do pretty well at adapting to the weather conditions. Weeds grow prolifically in the winter here, so they do not have to travel far for food when they do wake.

 

[Tom]

You need a dedicated, separate fridge, set at the right temp for them. It would not be good to be opening the fridge door ten times a day while they are hibernating.

I like to use dry "sani-chips" as a hibernation substrate. I have also used dry coco chips at times. They can dig down in these easier, and seem to like it.

Okay, check that. I just bought a mini fridge today, so I will make sure it stays in the right temperature range over the coming week before I let them start hibernating in it this weekend.

Tom, I believe you stated that 45°F was the ideal hibernation temperature. However, here is a passage from an article titled, "The Hibernation Journey," by Shelly Jones from http://russiantortoise.net/hibernation_journey.htm

"It is said that at the 39 - 41 range the tortoise will lose very little weight. At temperatures higher or lower the tortoise will dig either upward to reach colder temperatures or downward to reach warmer temperatures as the soil gradient occurs in nature. This causes an energy expenditure which should be minimized as much as possible."

What do you make of this?

The 45 number is what I frequently hear quoted for russians. Ask GB. He's the resident expert on Testudo.

---

What species are you referring to here?

Any. I hibernate them all the same with minor variations based on their behavior. Lizards too.

 

[GBtortoises]

I think a better brumation temperature range for Russians is 38-40 degrees. At 45 degrees they can actually still be too active and burn excessive energy. I've personally had this happen years ago when I used to brumate my tortoises indoors in a refrigerator at nearly 45 degrees. I would check on them every few days and often found the Russian totoises in different positions, different depths and even had one large female in particular that would be staring up at me when I opened the top of the box that she was in!

"It is said that at the 39 - 41 range the tortoise will lose very little weight. At temperatures higher or lower the tortoise will dig either upward to reach colder temperatures or downward to reach warmer temperatures as the soil gradient occurs in nature. This causes an energy expenditure which should be minimized as much as possible."

The above temperatures stated are basically within range but I completely disagree with the explanation about why tortoises move during brumation. it is in fact just the opposite as written above. They move downward (to a point) to escape increasingly colder ground temperatures above them. But once they're surrounding temperatures reach a certain low their capability to move is extremely minimal to non-existent. This is the reason that exposure to temperatures too close to or below freezing during brumation will kill them in the ground. If they were still active at those temperatures they would simply dig deeper well below the frost line.
When the ground temperature above them begins to increase they respond by moving upward toward the surface. The warmer their surrounding temperatures the more active they become.

Another, almost always overlooked important factor during brumation is soil moisture content. If it is too dry a tortoise will lose weight more rapidly. If it is too wet ice crystals can easily form around them and potenially in them. However my Russian and Eastern Hermann's tortoises that come out of brumation outdoors are almost always covered with either condensation to mud so there must obviously be some capability to withstand some excessive moisture.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

The above temperatures stated are basically within range but I completely disagree with the explanation about why tortoises move during brumation. it is in fact just the opposite as written above. They move downward (to a point) to escape increasingly colder ground temperatures above them. But once they're surrounding temperatures reach a certain low their capability to move is extremely minimal to non-existent. This is the reason that exposure to temperatures too close to or below freezing during brumation will kill them in the ground. If they were still active at those temperatures they would simply dig deeper well below the frost line.
When the ground temperature above them begins to increase they respond by moving upward toward the surface. The warmer their surrounding temperatures the more active they become.

Thank you for chiming in, GB. Okay, so 38-40°F it is.

However, as to your analysis of the article, I think you and the other author agree on at least one point: that brumating turtles try to dig downward when they want to escape colder conditions above them. For this reason, the fridge should be at the right temperature, or else the animals will waste their energy reserves trying to dig through a cardboard shoebox. Isn't that right?

As for humidity, I think I will just use some coco coir from my tortoises' pens. This stuff is amazing in its ability to hold onto moisture and raise humidity without getting things wet.

 

[GBtortoises]

I agree. Most everyone that I know that brumate tortoises in a refrigerator do so with a temperature of 38-40 degrees. The beauty of using a refrigerator is that it is very easy to control the temperature and humidity. Something that isn't easy to do if brumating tortoises in a garage, basement or outdoors.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

I agree. Most everyone that I know that brumate tortoises in a refrigerator do so with a temperature of 38-40 degrees. The beauty of using a refrigerator is that it is very easy to control the temperature and humidity. Something that isn't easy to do if brumating tortoises in a garage, basement or outdoors.

I am toying with the settings on my mini-fridge now (the torties aren't going in for another few days). I had it on the highest setting and the temperature was still only 37-38°F. So, I put it on "defrost," and hopefully that will get me closer to 40°F.

Re: Air
I have read that you can either use aquarium tubing to supply a little bit of airflow into the fridge, or else just open the door a few times a week. I put in a tube yesterday, but it just seems like it interferes with the seal on the door too much. What do you guys think? Maybe I should just periodically open the door instead. If so, how often?

BTW - Yesterday, I went to the local specialty pet store (fish, amphibians, reptiles) to get the aquarium tubing, and noticed that their two Russian tortoises were up and at 'em. I told the owner about my guys, and how they want to hibernate. He nodded his head, and said the difference is probably due to the elevated temperatures and humidity within his store. Sounds reasonable. Of course, I'm not going to be trying to raise the temperature or humidity in here. That would cost a fortune. Heck, that's the whole reason I went with Russians in the first place: so they could deal with it. If that makes them want to brumate, then so be it.

 

[GBtortoises]

I've never been too concerned about providing an air supply but I always used full size refrigerators that have a larger capacity than a mini fridge. I would be concerned about incoming air warming the temperature within the refrigerator too much. This potentially causing too much moisture within from the warm air hitting the cold air within.

I don't think there is any need for additional air as long as the door is opened occasionally. I always checked my tortoises in hibernation about once a week, sometimes a bit longer in between checks. The door was opened for several minutes at a time then. Probably the temperature even went up a bit but never enough to be concerned.