The End Of Pyramiding

[Tom]

Hey Ben. So far I've only done this with Sulcatas and South African Leopards. CA Deserts are just starting and some more species are in the works. Neal is doing his Babcock leopard and several other people are doing various other species. In time we will have all the answers. Leopards are one of the most sensitive to respiratory problems and so far all of them have had ZERO problems with high humidity. One ket is to ALWAYS keep them above 80. Day and night 24/7. The combination of cold and wet is where the problems usually start. I invite everyone to try it out and report back to the forum what their results are. In my own experience, and in the Austrian study, 80% or higher seems to be the magic number.

 

[Tom]

Hi Tom, I might get a Marginated or Russian tortoise next week. I would like to contribute and try this technique myself. All my tortoise (well hermann and redfoot) do have a humid hides and water always available and I already started to spray all my tortoise (even if both of them are already adult or small adult lol). However, I'll give it a try on the next species I'll get to see if it work and give you update about it!

That would be great. This technique is all about hatchlings. I don't think there is much benefit to using the wet routine on juveniles or adults.

I'd love to hear how this goes for hatchlings of any species from anyone out there.

 

[Tom]

Update. They continue to grow smoothly. Weights are between 230 and 255 grams. Sorry for the bad lighting. Its just been too cold and rainy to go out.

The End.

 

[DeanS]

VERY, VERY NICE!

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Those aren't real Tom!

You have to be feeding.. or warming.. or lighting.. or exercising or hiding or something DIFFERENTLY - this can't be just the result of maintaining high humidity levels on their carapace!

WHAT ARE YOU DOING DIFFERENTLY??? COME ON.. TELL YOUR SECRET.. [ one more time until they hear it ]

Terry K

 

[ChiKat]

Those aren't real Tom!

You have to be feeding.. or warming.. or lighting.. or exercising or hiding or something DIFFERENTLY - this can't be just the result of maintaining high humidity levels on their carapace!

WHAT ARE YOU DOING DIFFERENTLY??? COME ON.. TELL YOUR SECRET.. [ one more time until they hear it ]

Terry K

It isn't just "the result of maintaining high humidity levels on their carapace" I'm pretty sure they are also fed an excellent, varied diet, given lots of exercise, and have access to natural sunlight.


They look great Tom!!! I can't believe how big they're getting! It looks like those tiny little legs shouldn't be able to hold up since big, sturdy shells!

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Those aren't real Tom!

You have to be feeding.. or warming.. or lighting.. or exercising or hiding or something DIFFERENTLY - this can't be just the result of maintaining high humidity levels on their carapace!

WHAT ARE YOU DOING DIFFERENTLY??? COME ON.. TELL YOUR SECRET.. [ one more time until they hear it ]

Terry K

It isn't just "the result of maintaining high humidity levels on their carapace" I'm pretty sure they are also fed an excellent, varied diet, given lots of exercise, and have access to natural sunlight.


They look great Tom!!! I can't believe how big they're getting! It looks like those tiny little legs shouldn't be able to hold up since big, sturdy shells!

Tom told me on the phone yesterday that the ONLY thing that he is doing differently with these hatchlings ( the ONLY thing that he is doing differently from any other tortoise in the past 20 years ).. is the humidity directly on their carapace! Instead of the carapace growing UP/pyramided.. it's growing out and solid.. no honey-comb carapace bone-growth.

Try it you'll like it.

Terry K

 

[ChiKat]

Ohh I see what you're saying...what he's doing differently compared to what he did with his other tortoises.
I apologize, it's been a long day

 

[Tom]

Ohh I see what you're saying...what he's doing differently compared to what he did with his other tortoises.
I apologize, it's been a long day

Try to keep up Katie.

Thanks for the compliment.

 

[Badgemash]

Going through the last few pages gave me a few ideas. This is more brainstorming than fully fledged action plans, so bear with me.

1) When I look at pictures and videos of wild leopards, the shells aren't perfectly smooth, I wouldn't say they're "pyramided" exactly, but there is definitely some sort of lumpy effect. What if a perfectly smooth shell is wrong for some species? It might be good for some (the aldabs at the zoo with their smooth domes spring to mind), but has anyone ever seen a leopard anywhere with that kind of shell?

2) Should we be looking at wild examples as the ideal? I've seen BLM mustangs brought off the range at roughly 1.5-2 years old, and with a high quality "captivity" diet finish out as 16h warmblood look-a-likes. You would never guess how they started out when comparing them to wild adult horses. I know torts aren't horses, but it's something to think about, the wild appearance isn't always ideal.

3) Applying concept #2 to torts, I'm not seeing how allowing them to eat a lot (assuming the food is high quality, nutritionally balanced, species appropriate, and properly supplemented) is detrimental. Yes it might make them grow faster, but if we look at the equine example, that's not a bad thing. If everything else physiologically is going well, is faster growth bad?

4) (perhaps less controversial) At what point do we consider the non-pyramidal growth pattern set, and begin to reduce the humidity levels? I ask this from a practical and selfish standpoint, high humidity and permanent outdoor living don't really go together in AZ.

Just some ideas to play with and kick around. I'm new at this and want to learn, so please feel free to tell me (nicely) why I'm wrong

-Devon

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Going through the last few pages gave me a few ideas. This is more brainstorming than fully fledged action plans, so bear with me.

1) When I look at pictures and videos of wild leopards, the shells aren't perfectly smooth, I wouldn't say they're "pyramided" exactly, but there is definitely some sort of lumpy effect. What if a perfectly smooth shell is wrong for some species? It might be good for some (the aldabs at the zoo with their smooth domes spring to mind), but has anyone ever seen a leopard anywhere with that kind of shell?

2) Should we be looking at wild examples as the ideal? I've seen BLM mustangs brought off the range at roughly 1.5-2 years old, and with a high quality "captivity" diet finish out as 16h warmblood look-a-likes. You would never guess how they started out when comparing them to wild adult horses. I know torts aren't horses, but it's something to think about, the wild appearance isn't always ideal.

3) Applying concept #2 to torts, I'm not seeing how allowing them to eat a lot (assuming the food is high quality, nutritionally balanced, species appropriate, and properly supplemented) is detrimental. Yes it might make them grow faster, but if we look at the equine example, that's not a bad thing. If everything else physiologically is going well, is faster growth bad?

4) (perhaps less controversial) At what point do we consider the non-pyramidal growth pattern set, and begin to reduce the humidity levels? I ask this from a practical and selfish standpoint, high humidity and permanent outdoor living don't really go together in AZ.

Just some ideas to play with and kick around. I'm new at this and want to learn, so please feel free to tell me (nicely) why I'm wrong

-Devon

mammal vs reptile

warm-blood vs cold-blood

"all" tortoise species are different so have different needs.. some are herbivorous and some are omnivorous.. and look different.

This 'look' is perfectly normal for the Sri Lanken Star tortoise - G. elegans -

Or the smallest tort on the planet - 'padloper' -

... the list goes on...

Terry K

 

[Kosace]

There does seem to be a correlation of more water/humidity--->smoother shell formation. That's probably why through evolution the water turtles all have smooth shells. Although there are exceptions such as snappers, etc. I feel as though painted turtles are watered down red foot tortoises. That's just my point of view.

 

[Tom]

Going through the last few pages gave me a few ideas. This is more brainstorming than fully fledged action plans, so bear with me.

1) When I look at pictures and videos of wild leopards, the shells aren't perfectly smooth, I wouldn't say they're "pyramided" exactly, but there is definitely some sort of lumpy effect. What if a perfectly smooth shell is wrong for some species? It might be good for some (the aldabs at the zoo with their smooth domes spring to mind), but has anyone ever seen a leopard anywhere with that kind of shell?

2) Should we be looking at wild examples as the ideal? I've seen BLM mustangs brought off the range at roughly 1.5-2 years old, and with a high quality "captivity" diet finish out as 16h warmblood look-a-likes. You would never guess how they started out when comparing them to wild adult horses. I know torts aren't horses, but it's something to think about, the wild appearance isn't always ideal.

3) Applying concept #2 to torts, I'm not seeing how allowing them to eat a lot (assuming the food is high quality, nutritionally balanced, species appropriate, and properly supplemented) is detrimental. Yes it might make them grow faster, but if we look at the equine example, that's not a bad thing. If everything else physiologically is going well, is faster growth bad?

4) (perhaps less controversial) At what point do we consider the non-pyramidal growth pattern set, and begin to reduce the humidity levels? I ask this from a practical and selfish standpoint, high humidity and permanent outdoor living don't really go together in AZ.

Just some ideas to play with and kick around. I'm new at this and want to learn, so please feel free to tell me (nicely) why I'm wrong

-Devon

I'll answer these "nicely" for you:

1. I've heard people claim to have seen pyramided wild caught imports. I don't think so. Here's why: With my own eyes, in Africa, I did not see one single pyramided leopard in the wild. I did see some in captivity, but even that was the rare exception. I saw 100's of them and they were all so smooth that I didn't even recognize them as leopards. When I got home, I went on the internet to try to identify what they were and that's when I realized that wild ones, or ones raised in "wild" conditions in Africa do not pyramid. Now if I raised a pyramided CA desert tortoise and then gave it to a wholesaler and he exported it to Africa, the importer in Africa would call it a wild caught import and Africans would think that CDTs pyramid in the wild.

2. The short, easy answer, given my thoughts on #1, is yes, we should look at the wild ones as an example of what we should strive for.

3. I say that faster growth is not bad, IF IF IF it is done right. Conventional wisdom, and "The Establishment" mostly say that faster growth is bad. Even my good friend Terry K. generally thinks that fast growth is bad. I used to think so too, but my latest experiments are showing me otherwise.

4. For sulcatas the number I've heard is 6-8". I have not heard a number for leopards since they are ALL pyramided in captivity, I don't think anyone knows. Maybe, in a few years, WE will discover this answer with the 36 leopards that ours came out of.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Tom.. ".....fast growth is bad. I used to think so too, but my latest experiments are showing me otherwise."

You are taking the entire "BALANCE" to the max.. too!

Notice the growth-rate in some of the pics of my redfoots.. sometimes several/wide growth 'rings'.. but they aren't "stacked" because I/you keep them 'lubricated'( a Richard Fife term )/wet so they grow out instead of up! Oooooops I let the secret out.

Terry K

 

[Badgemash]

I don't disagree that the pyramiding is a result of poor husbandry and isn't present in the wild specimens (at least as far as I know). But from what I can see in the pictures of wild leopards, even they have little mounds on them. They're vastly smoother than what we see in captivity (so far), but they're not perfectly smooth. So are we aiming for a wild appearance, or a perfectly smooth appearance?

I asked about the growth thing for Octavia (she can't type). I allow them access to fresh, varied food for most of the day and they eat when and as much as they want (which is often and a lot). All of them, but especially Octavia have been growing like crazy. But her shell is still smooth and firm, and as far as I can tell (and the vet) she's perfectly fine and healthy. How does allowing constant foraging cause harm? I'm not asking to be confrontational, I just don't know the answers.

-Devon

 

[Tom]

I don't disagree that the pyramiding is a result of poor husbandry and isn't present in the wild specimens (at least as far as I know). But from what I can see in the pictures of wild leopards, even they have little mounds on them. They're vastly smoother than what we see in captivity (so far), but they're not perfectly smooth. So are we aiming for a wild appearance, or a perfectly smooth appearance?

I asked about the growth thing for Octavia (she can't type). I allow them access to fresh, varied food for most of the day and they eat when and as much as they want (which is often and a lot). All of them, but especially Octavia have been growing like crazy. But her shell is still smooth and firm, and as far as I can tell (and the vet) she's perfectly fine and healthy. How does allowing constant foraging cause harm? I'm not asking to be confrontational, I just don't know the answers.

-Devon

All of the wild ones I saw were completely smooth. That amounts to a whopping six individuals. However, I saw dozens that were living outside in large, natural areas that were more or less "wild" and ALL of them were totally smooth too. They were so smooth, and of differing sizes and ages, that I didn't even know what species it was at first. All of the wild caught captives that produced our Gpp babies are totally smooth too. Here's a couple of pics. They were brought in as large adults 21 years ago, so who knows how old they are, but they are very weathered.

The ones that I saw over there were smoother than this and much darker.

I don't see anything wrong with letting them graze "naturally". I think that's the best way to feed them, personally.

 

[Tom]

UPDATE: I forgot to get weights but they are around 250 grams. I'll add weights later. Enough yammering. Here's todays pics...

The End...

 

[Edna]

They look awesome, Tom. The 3rd pic looks like a future RV in the making. Such a sweet face!!

 

[Torty Mom]

Tom, when you were in RV's burrow, did you take any temperature readings or humidity readings?

 

[kbaker]

UPDATE: I forgot to get weights but they are around 250 grams. I'll add weights later. Enough yammering. Here's todays pics...

The End...

Tom,
We love you and your tortoises, but these "in your face" pictures have got to stop!
Can you size them a little smaller? or Are we playing 'Find the Tick?

And the tortoises are looking great!