The End Of Pyramiding

[Annieski]

From a medical stand point, there are only a few conditions that are so systemically connected--- that you can't have 1---without the other.
Scutes are part of the integumentary system [our version of skin, hair and nails---UNDER this protective layer is where you find the SKELETAL system[bone--which also includes some cartilage]. In the tortoise--the bones, that resemble human anatomy, such as our 12 pair of ribs and the bones of the spine---happen to be FUSED together. They both contribute to making the "protective housing" for the internal organs. Even though the 2 separate systems may require the same minerals,vitamins and hormones to produce healthy CELLS, it is the varied amounts that each individual cell [ie; bone/skin]---needs to replicate for "normal" growth to happen. IMO--I still believe--you can have pyramiding--without MBD----but not the other way around. I think of it in "human"terms--- I could have "ugly" finger/toenails that have thickened or have ridges, and not have an issue with the bones of my hand/foot, but most often, an underlying systemic problem-ie; cardiac insufficiency--- will present itself with clubbed fingers.

 

[jackrat]

IMPORTANT UPDATE!!!

I had a mildly pyramided Red-foot shell I was going to cut apart to examine how the pyramids are formed, and as I was looking at it and photographing it in preparation, I found a loose scute! I was able to peel it off and examine things closely.

I'll post photos later today, but the key points are:
1. The BONE FOLLOWS THE PYRAMID!
2. The pyramided scute is so thin you can see though the pale central area. (I know someone earlier mentioned these two points, but now we have photographic proof of them.)
3. The bone shows impressions of the growth lines.

While this does not change the results of Tom's experiments, it may affect our working theories and would seem to mean that even simple pyramiding is a form of MBD since bone is indeed involved.

One of many remaining questions- does the scute deform the growing bone or does the deforming bone push the scute out?

Every shell I've ever found had loose or fallen scutes.I think it's just decomposition.My humble opinion.

 

[Kristina]

IMO--I still believe--you can have pyramiding--without MBD----but not the other way around.

Google image - obvious MBD, no pyramiding. (despite the fact that they point out almost non-existent pyramiding )

One of my own tortoises. Pyramiding is slight, obvious that this girl suffered from MBD in the past.

So yes, you absolutely can have MBD without pyramiding.

 

[Tom]

IMPORTANT UPDATE!!!

I had a mildly pyramided Red-foot shell I was going to cut apart to examine how the pyramids are formed, and as I was looking at it and photographing it in preparation, I found a loose scute! I was able to peel it off and examine things closely.

I'll post photos later today, but the key points are:
1. The BONE FOLLOWS THE PYRAMID!
2. The pyramided scute is so thin you can see though the pale central area. (I know someone earlier mentioned these two points, but now we have photographic proof of them.)
3. The bone shows impressions of the growth lines.

While this does not change the results of Tom's experiments, it may affect our working theories and would seem to mean that even simple pyramiding is a form of MBD since bone is indeed involved.

One of many remaining questions- does the scute deform the growing bone or does the deforming bone push the scute out?

Mark. That's fascinating stuff. Now we're getting somewhere. I've been waiting for a DOA for a while now, just for this reason. Please post lots of pics and share your observations.

Is the bone "spongy" looking inside? Your first three observations above speak volumes. I would really like to know the answer to that last question? Which came first the chicken or the egg? Canine hip dysplasia was another study obsession of mine a few years back. The bones of young puppies are like rubber. They don't calcify and harden up for a few months after birth. One of the ways to avoid dysplasia in breeds that are prone to it is to keep them light, grow them slow, and don't let them jump or exercise too much. It seems the muscle and tendons pull on the rubbery bones and if the muscles are too big and the pup weighs much more than normal the bones can get misshapen and then calcify that way, causing the dysplasia. I wonder if there is an element of this rubbery-ness to our torts shells during some phases of growth. Your previous starched sheet analogy, coupled with this rubbery bone theory might explain some of this. The bone conforming to the misshapen scutes would also explain why it takes years to get smooth growth, after a pattern for pyramided growth has already been established. Good lord, you are changing the direction of BONE growth. No wonder it takes so long and is so difficult.

My mind is racing with all the details and implications...

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Since we know that the internet is THE source of valuable and true info! See - http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/unicorn-meat.shtml

We can't leave this out of the equation Tom! For example.. how the horn of the aging Unicorn deteriorates..

Unicorns, as we all know, frolic all over the world, pooping rainbows and marshmallows wherever they go. What you don't know is that when unicorns reach the end of their lifespan, they are drawn to County Meath, Ireland. The Sisters at Radiant Farms have dedicated their lives to nursing these elegant creatures through their final days. Taking a cue from the Kobe beef industry, they massage each unicorn's coat with Guinness daily and fatten them on a diet comprised entirely of candy corn.

As the unicorn ages, its meat becomes fatty and marbled and the living bone in the horn loses density in a process much like osteoporosis. The horn's outer layer of keratin begins to develop a flavor very similar to candied almonds. Blending the crushed unicorn horn into the meat adds delightful, crispy flavor notes in each bite. We are confident you will find a world of bewilderment in every mouthful of scrumptious unicorn meat.

Your mind has to be racing now I'm sure...............

NERD

 

[Tom]

Since we know that the internet is THE source of valuable and true info! See - http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/unicorn-meat.shtml

We can't leave this out of the equation Tom! For example.. how the horn of the aging Unicorn deteriorates..

Unicorns, as we all know, frolic all over the world, pooping rainbows and marshmallows wherever they go. What you don't know is that when unicorns reach the end of their lifespan, they are drawn to County Meath, Ireland. The Sisters at Radiant Farms have dedicated their lives to nursing these elegant creatures through their final days. Taking a cue from the Kobe beef industry, they massage each unicorn's coat with Guinness daily and fatten them on a diet comprised entirely of candy corn.

As the unicorn ages, its meat becomes fatty and marbled and the living bone in the horn loses density in a process much like osteoporosis. The horn's outer layer of keratin begins to develop a flavor very similar to candied almonds. Blending the crushed unicorn horn into the meat adds delightful, crispy flavor notes in each bite. We are confident you will find a world of bewilderment in every mouthful of scrumptious unicorn meat.

Your mind has to be racing now I'm sure...............

NERD

... sarcastic old fart...

 

[Balboa]

IMPORTANT UPDATE!!!

I had a mildly pyramided Red-foot shell I was going to cut apart to examine how the pyramids are formed, and as I was looking at it and photographing it in preparation, I found a loose scute! I was able to peel it off and examine things closely.

I'll post photos later today, but the key points are:
1. The BONE FOLLOWS THE PYRAMID!
2. The pyramided scute is so thin you can see though the pale central area. (I know someone earlier mentioned these two points, but now we have photographic proof of them.)
3. The bone shows impressions of the growth lines.

While this does not change the results of Tom's experiments, it may affect our working theories and would seem to mean that even simple pyramiding is a form of MBD since bone is indeed involved.

One of many remaining questions- does the scute deform the growing bone or does the deforming bone push the scute out?

Every shell I've ever found had loose or fallen scutes.I think it's just decomposition.My humble opinion.

Jack, if I'm following both you and Mark right I think you missed the point. I believe Mark is talking about the deformed bone causing a deformed scute (in regards to "popping out") not about the scute just falling off from decomposition.

And yes, this is fascinating stuff Mark!

---

Since we know that the internet is THE source of valuable and true info! See - http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/unicorn-meat.shtml

We can't leave this out of the equation Tom! For example.. how the horn of the aging Unicorn deteriorates..

Unicorns, as we all know, frolic all over the world, pooping rainbows and marshmallows wherever they go. What you don't know is that when unicorns reach the end of their lifespan, they are drawn to County Meath, Ireland. The Sisters at Radiant Farms have dedicated their lives to nursing these elegant creatures through their final days. Taking a cue from the Kobe beef industry, they massage each unicorn's coat with Guinness daily and fatten them on a diet comprised entirely of candy corn.

As the unicorn ages, its meat becomes fatty and marbled and the living bone in the horn loses density in a process much like osteoporosis. The horn's outer layer of keratin begins to develop a flavor very similar to candied almonds. Blending the crushed unicorn horn into the meat adds delightful, crispy flavor notes in each bite. We are confident you will find a world of bewilderment in every mouthful of scrumptious unicorn meat.

Your mind has to be racing now I'm sure...............

NERD

... sarcastic old fart...

+1 I couldn't for the life of me think of how to respond to Terry on this one, I was laughing too hard, Tom did it perfectly

 

[Tom]

He knows I mean that with the utmost respect...

Brash young whipper-snappers need sarcastic old farts to reel them in sometimes...

 

[Annieski]

IMO--I still believe--you can have pyramiding--without MBD----but not the other way around.

Google image - obvious MBD, no pyramiding. (despite the fact that they point out almost non-existent pyramiding )

One of my own tortoises. Pyramiding is slight, obvious that this girl suffered from MBD in the past.

So yes, you absolutely can have MBD without pyramiding.

Kristina--I see pyramiding in both of those animals. I believe the "deformed" shell is a good indicator of MBD. I disagree though, about the swollen limbs. Puffiness and/or swollen limbs is an indication of Kidney and Cardiac problems--of which--both can be a direct result of MBD due to calcium leeching. When trying to find an answer to a question---sometimes I can get off the right path. My point was to be that---just because you have one symptom---it's cause is not necessarily from only 1 thing. And because "systems" work together for the whole organism to thrive, you must look at each part to find how it contributes to the whole.

 

[Balboa]

OK.
thinking about the mechanics involved here.
As I understood it from Danny, the entire scute grows another layer underneath, but that doesn't fit with what Mark found.
We know that Scutes overlap the growth lines in the bone. Like a brick wall with just two courses or flooring in your home.
This means that as one layer grows, the other must as well, and they will slide against each other. If one grows unevenly, or they can't slide (lack of lubricating moisture), buckling will result. That presents a void, which a body may fill with bone. If it buckles the other way, ie there is not enough calcium to produce enough bone the shell will buckle in.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Since we know that the internet is THE source of valuable and true info! See - http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/unicorn-meat.shtml

We can't leave this out of the equation Tom! For example.. how the horn of the aging Unicorn deteriorates..

Unicorns, as we all know, frolic all over the world, pooping rainbows and marshmallows wherever they go. What you don't know is that when unicorns reach the end of their lifespan, they are drawn to County Meath, Ireland. The Sisters at Radiant Farms have dedicated their lives to nursing these elegant creatures through their final days. Taking a cue from the Kobe beef industry, they massage each unicorn's coat with Guinness daily and fatten them on a diet comprised entirely of candy corn.

As the unicorn ages, its meat becomes fatty and marbled and the living bone in the horn loses density in a process much like osteoporosis. The horn's outer layer of keratin begins to develop a flavor very similar to candied almonds. Blending the crushed unicorn horn into the meat adds delightful, crispy flavor notes in each bite. We are confident you will find a world of bewilderment in every mouthful of scrumptious unicorn meat.

Your mind has to be racing now I'm sure...............

NERD

... sarcastic old fart...

Thank you Tom..

.. to me! It's taken years to establish that recognition!

- "Age and treachery will always dictate youth and enthusiasm" - [bumper sticker]

Touche'

NERD

 

[Tom]

Annieski, In the case of MBD, the limbs swell because the body tries to reinforce the weakened area around the receding bone with fibrous connective tissue that it can build without Ca. You can see this very easily in lizards. Their limbs start to look like Popeye and their lower jaws swell out.

 

[chadk]

I don't know why there is so much focus on pyramiding to be honest. MDB is definately a concern we should all fight, but a little pyramiding shouldn't be treated like the plague... Severe pyramding would be an indicator of some husbandry issues, but can anyone show that aside from aesthetics, pyramiding in itself is a sign of any specific health concern?

 

[Madkins007]

Update clarification-

This shell from a 8" or so female has been dried and was varnished something like 20-25 years ago. The loose scute has just loosened in the last few years- and even with it loosened, I had to carefully work it with a thin knife blade to get it all the way off.

I have not cut into the bone yet- I still really do not want to saw him up. However, I discovered that there are two thin spots in the shell that light comes through- completely apart from where the scute came off- that correspond to the upper, outer (distal) corners of the first pair of costals- but does not line up with any sutures in the bone that I can see. Because the shell is so old and dried out, I am not sure anything I find about the density will be valid.

When I was wondering about the scutes pulling the bone, I was basically wondering cause and effect-
- Are the scutes deforming because of dryness or something and the soft, growing bone is changing to accommodate?
- Is the bone changing for so-far unknown reasons and shoving the scutes? If the bone is the first change, then why is misting working? The water droplets are not penetrating the scute layer to hit the bone, so what is happening?

I fully agree that nothing happens in a vacuum- bodies and systems are intimately interconnected. However, having said that, I can easily show that MBD can happen without pyramiding since MBD is a catch-term for several bone diseases. Piaget's Disease, for example, is a form of MBD and does not involve pyramiding. You might be able to say that pyramiding happens with Nutritional Secondary Hyperparathyroidism (NSHP), the most common MDB, but it is not listed amongst the official symptoms that I can find.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I don't know why there is so much focus on pyramiding to be honest. MDB is definately a concern we should all fight, but a little pyramiding shouldn't be treated like the plague... Severe pyramding would be an indicator of some husbandry issues, but can anyone show that aside from aesthetics, pyramiding in itself is a sign of any specific health concern?

I'm really glad you brought this up Chad. The Q? IS.. what real damage is done? Guess we'll know 20 years from now?

The original [ 1998 ] 'raised from hatchling' breeders of mine are still producing. Jackrat's Knobs is one of them.. this Brazilian looked like she does when I acquired her 4 years ago..

Hasn't slowed her down -

Aug. 16 '10 - outside -

She was showing 'nesting' behavior around the 2nd week of Sept. so I placed her in the nest box, but never saw her nesting - I missed her laying - and she dug them up 11/09 while nesting! Three of the 4 were destroyed in the process.

Oct. 08 '10 - inside -

Nov. 09 '10 -

Not the prettiest Chad.. but still regular!

NERD

 

[Madkins007]

Terry and Kristina- Re: Tom's Sulcata growth lines...

No, sorry, I do not see a gap, a space, or a sign of a wider ring. When I examine them as closely as I can, I see thin, evenly spaced rings right up to the other scute. Yes, the outer rings are darker, but I am wondering if you are seeing the darker spaces as a gap.

I cannot clearly see what is happening near the ventrals, but between the costals and between the costals and marginals is nice and tight as far as I can see.

---

I don't know why there is so much focus on pyramiding to be honest. MDB is definately a concern we should all fight, but a little pyramiding shouldn't be treated like the plague... Severe pyramding would be an indicator of some husbandry issues, but can anyone show that aside from aesthetics, pyramiding in itself is a sign of any specific health concern?

LOL! Did you read the Shell Problems article yet? I said almost the exact same thing in it!

It would be nice to figure out this piece of the puzzle so we can offer the best cares possible, but if it really is a cosmetic issue, then it is not the end of the Earth.

 

[Kristina]

Kristina--I see pyramiding in both of those animals. I believe the "deformed" shell is a good indicator of MBD. I disagree though, about the swollen limbs. Puffiness and/or swollen limbs is an indication of Kidney and Cardiac problems--of which--both can be a direct result of MBD due to calcium leeching.

As I said - GOOGLE picture. I was simply using it as an example of a tortoise with MBD and very little evidence of pyramiding. I did NOT put the labels on the picture.

Where is the pyramiding in the first animal? I see no pyramiding, rather a captive raised tortoise.

 

[Madkins007]

UPDATE PHOTOS

The shell before finding the loose scute

The space the scute was. Notice the raised bone.

The scute- notice that you can see the pad guidelines through the scute.

You can see the growth lines in the bone.

(Golly, Tinypic.com works nicely!)

To recap- this is my 20-25 year-old shell I have kept from my first Red-foot, Japuta. I was going to cut it to see how the scutes were shaped inside when I found one of the scutes was loose so I gently pried it off.

As you can see, the scute IS fingernail thin, and the bone IS deformed.

The bone is so old that it is light, and I am reluctant to cut it to look at the bone but still may. There are a couple thin, translucent areas right on the upper rear corners of the first pair of costal scutes.

 

[Balboa]

Thank you Mark,
I can only imagine how you feel holding that shell.

I think I can see there why it would be difficult to correct pyramiding once started. In order for that vertabral bone (forgive me if the correct name is wrong) to grow, it would have to essentially pop off the scute, which creates a void that the bone is constantly trying to fill.

I'm not great on biology, but wouldn't there need to be a cartilage layer between the scute and bone to even allow the bone to grow this way, which of course reminds me, are we looking at bone or cartilage?

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Granted.. I'm too simple-minded to do all this tech. stuff and besides.. what difference does it make anyway??? - there are a number of us that keep redfoot tortoises, etc. that grow them smooth when they are misted regularly; and they become bumpy when they aren't..... all other things the same. AND it didn't take 10 years and 100's of them to observe this ( in some cases ).. even tho' I've seen 100's over 5 years. [ I can show pic doc. of at least 5 for 5 years on a regular basis ]

Again these observations are too simple for some - and some things we'll never have answers to anyway. Some are even so concerned that they keep changing their names and who belongs to who's family tree...... mine just want a warm place to live and something good to eat and drink!

NERD