Taco, second try

[Stephanie Logan]

Now let's see if I can embed these photos of Taco-tina.

Taco the Chaco tortoise
Here are some photos of my bonita Tacquita. You can see the pyramid scutes on her carapace. The nail polish is there so we can find her when she goes on walkabout through our large yard and then snuggles down into various foliage to nap. I would appreciate advice or info on how to prevent further deformation of her scutes and whether anything can be done to reverse the damage that exists. There are obviously some veteran tortoise keepers on this forum!
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Again, I would appreciate commentary or advice on the pyramid issue!

 

[Stazz]

Oh how lovely Taco is !!!! the nailpolished scutes are pretty funky eh, very Art Deco

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Well, I don't think the polish is a good idea, but it probably isn't hurting anything as long as you don't get it on the growth lines. Her new growth with you will be healthy growth so the pyramiding will look less I'm thinking. Do you know how old she is? It's hard to tell in the pictures if she has reached her maximum growth...the damage will never go completely away but as she grows it will look less. I am sure Yvonne will comment on her and she is very experienced in that sort of damage...But she sure has a pretty face...the tortoise not my sister...Well, my sister has a pretty face too...

 

[Stephanie Logan]

Well, I don't think the polish is a good idea, but it probably isn't hurting anything as long as you don't get it on the growth lines. Her new growth with you will be healthy growth so the pyramiding will look less I'm thinking. Do you know how old she is? It's hard to tell in the pictures if she has reached her maximum growth...the damage will never go completely away but as she grows it will look less. I am sure Yvonne will comment on her and she is very experienced in that sort of damage...But she sure has a pretty face...the tortoise not my sister...Well, my sister has a pretty face too...

Haha, that is funny. I hope your sister thinks so, too. I didn't know polish would hurt her, I thought her shell was more like a fingernail. Now I would take it off if it isn't good for her, but I hesitate to use nail polish remover if the polish itself is bad!
Taco is about 3-4 years old, and according to what I've read, Chacos reach maturity at about 9 years and are full grown when they are 8 inches long. Taco's upper shell measures 6" now. That would be great if future growth helps to straighten it out some.

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Oh how lovely Taco is !!!! the nailpolished scutes are pretty funky eh, very Art Deco

Thank you, I agree she is exceptionally good-looking. I have been reading the diet posts on this forum and am heading out today to replace my calcium with D3 to pure calcium carbonate, and keep it in a salt shaker. Taco LOVES grapes, so I usually put a tiny dusting on a grape cut in half before giving to her to scarf down.

 

[Meg90]

How long have you had her, and where did you get her?


The shell is like skin, not like nails. It is porous and absorbs what you put on it. To get the nail polish off, you might try scrubbing lightly with a toothbrush and some warm water. Don't use anything chemical on her.


She's got a beautiful face. How do you keep her indoors. Once we know, and have seen pics, we can tell you how to prevent more pyramiding. It never stops unless the problem is fixed, it will just get worse.

And here's a link to how to correctly measure your tortoise. http://www.tlady.clara.net/measure.htm

You should have been dusting calcium powder on every meal, or over the whole meal, not just on a grape. That is not nearly enough for her......

 

[Crazy1]

Please be aware that Pure calcium carbonate goes a long way with a good varied diet so just a small amount for a 3-4 year old should be fine. Taco is a lovely chacos. Again I believe Danny is the expert on this species here. He will be at a show in Daytona this weekend so may respond late. Shells are made of Keretin the same type of material your nails are made of. But there is so much more on a tort than on a person. I would let the polish wear off or as Meg said use a soft brush when you soak or bathe her. Little bit at a time. It would be better to place a strap of velcro around her middle that you can see. like a wrist band when she is out and about if it will make it easier for you can find her. For her shell what has been done can not be undone. But it can be made to look better by improving her growth from this point on.

 

[Stephanie Logan]

The velcro strap is a great idea and I will use it. Maybe I could rig a chip of some sort that will beep when I push a remote button (like on a phone) and then we can find her quickly when she has gone undercover!

I definitely need to find more info on the right amount and right kind of calcium supplement. Sounds like pure calcium carbonate is the thing to use, but when I looked at Walgreens today they had a large bottle of calcium tablets without D or D3 or K, yet when I read the label there were other (probably trace) ingredients that sounded too chemical-ly to me and I wasn't sure they'd be OK for Taco to consume.

Thanks so much for the advice!

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OK, next time I let her soak in her warm bath I will use an old toothbrush to begin the removal process.

When I measured her shell, I took a flexible cloth tape measure, like one used for sewing, to measure the shell front to back, so I think the length is correct.

Taco came to us from Argentina via a pilot colleague of my husband's, because my oldest daughter had seen them for sale when we were in Buenos Aires once and expressed her desire for one (I was strongly opposed to taking on a new pet that we know nothing about, plus we have 5 kids, 4 cats and 9 finches, and I did NOT want to take on the responsibility of another pet). So my husband (who'd had a desert tortoise in the family orange grove in California as a child) and daughter put some newspaper pellet litter in a 10-gallon fish tank, and Taco lived there most of the year, with Romaine lettuce and water as her only sustenance. Marci would keep her on her basement bedroom dresser when she was home from college, and in the summer Taco was kept in a 6'x6' sandbox in our back yard, covered with heavy landscaping lattice to keep predators out, and with a 2'x2' board covering one corner for shade and shelter. Two months ago, while I was out gardening, I took Taco out of the sand box, thinking she may want to walk around. When I saw her head come out and up, and her legs (so long!) fully extended as she marched around the yard surveying her domaine, I realized this creature must be more than just a cage turtle. That very day I got on the internet, along with my daughter, and we researched till we found Taco's picture on the Chaco web articles. My daughter left back to college two weeks ago, but she didn't even suggest taking the tortoise as I have made it very clear that we are now going to dedicate ourselves (or at least myself) to transforming into legitimate tortoise keepers and correcting as much of the damage we've done as possible.
Sorry this is so long but it's actually the short version.

I have been keeping Taco out in the garden during the day and checking on her every 30-60 minutes. At night I keep her inside in a small, open dog crate on a bed of timothy hay. Now that fall is approaching here in Colorado I have ordered that toroise house that someone on this forum posted, from Petco. It is 36"x24"x12", and has a covered end for sleeping and privacy. I ordered two different kinds of substrate, a hiding log and a cuttle bone. I am still wondering whether to get her a basking platform, and I really need some GOOD ADVICE ON WHAT KIND OF HEAT LAMPS OR MATS TO USE (we already bought a heat mat for her but it's down in Texas in Marci's dorm room). According to the web sites I've seen, Chaco's don't hibernate, but go dormant over the winter. In the past, Marci would take her out every couple of weeks and give her a warm bath, let her pee and poop, then put her back in her cage (Fred made a bigger cage out of wood as she grew bigger, but it is still too small for a tortoise)--so we haven't been completely neglectful, we already bought some kind of calcium powder that Marci would put on her Romaine lettuce, but the truth is she probably only got maybe three pieces of lettuce a week at the most. I do feel really terrible about the number and extent of the errors we have made in caring for this charming little critter, but all I can do is now commit myself to much, much better tortoise keeping.

I would appreciate any advice you have, and I am reading nearly every thread on this web site for information and instruction.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Hi there! Welcome to the forum.

I suggest pure calcium carbonate *powder*, such as "Now" brand (orange label, white bottle I think), sold in health food stores. A dusting daily over her food, such as with the shaker. Once she's done growing you can cut back. The cuttlebone you mentioned is great in addition to the calcium supplement. Can you describe more what you feed besides any grazing?

Heating pads are dangerous in my opinion; in the wild they only get heat from above, not below. They can overheat or burn themselves. A ceramic heat emitter or black light bulb can be used if you need heat but not light or UVB. Can you have an enclosure to keep her outside all the time? What's your weather like? What kind of substrate did you order? If she is outside nearly daily, you do not need UVB inside, but likely need lighting and heating. A regular light bulb and a ceramic heat emitter for example for the day, and heat if needed at night. I am not familiar with the temperature requirements of this breed, but someone else should come along to recommend the gradient to keep her in if you do need to keep her inside. Likely she needs to be warmer than house temperature at all times to even digest food.

I am also not familiar with diet for this breed, but for now I'd suggest organic spring mix instead of the romaine (no spinach). Tortoises love it and it has a great variety, as well as being easy to find and cheap. After that you can work on a more varied diet. Make sure if she grazes in the yard it is free of pesticides and fertilizers. You can even plant a section of weeds for her.

Is the heat to be for night in the crate, and then she's outside during the day?

In the backyard, she needs a safe enclosure, such as with a fence dug in, and wire over the top. Let us know if we can help you plan. No sand, but plain clean dirt (organic, no pesticides/fertilizers) is great. Weeds and grasses and whatever the species likes to eat.

What do you mean by a basking platform? Those are for turtles, not tortoises.

For measuring, you should not need a flexible tape measure. You want to measure a straight line distance, not along the curve of the shell. Meg linked to a great site. Can you also weight her? You can use a kitchen scale, setting her in a container if needed (tare it out), unless she's already over the weight limit. A bathroom scale probably isn't accurate enough. She looks underweight from what I can see, but it's tough to tell with the shell. A varied diet of as much as she wants to eat right now would do her well.

Does she have access to water to soak in at all times?

 

[Stephanie Logan]

[Wow, thanks for all the advice. Taco is 5 7/8 inches long, using the measuring method recommended. She weighs 19.5 oz on our postal scale.

Diet!! This one has been a conundrum ever since I converted to tortoisism. She likes one specific kind of weed (not sure the name), pretty common and grows in rocky areas or in gutters. I have taken her up and down the block and into my neighbor's garden nearly every day so she can eat these. She won't eat: clover, dandelion, mallow, thistle, moss roses,pansies, petunias, roses, at least not so far. She won't eat anything I pick, she must pick it herself. She eats some of my ice plant in the garden, noses around on the patio and ate some tiny bits of styrofoam once before I could stop her. She ate some of the dragon wing begonia flowers that had fallen from the plants--even had a red mustache afterward, so I put some in her pen and she ignored them.

When I first realized how malnourished she is, I ran to Petsmart and got some hay pellets (timothy, oat, soybean and alfalfa) that are called Grassland Tortoise food, but as far as I know she has never touched them. Last week I bought some endive, mustard green, green beans, yellow squash and parsnip which I have offered every day, and all she eats is the endive. So--her diet is basically endive, iceplant, grapes and that one weed (it may be called trefoil). I have also tried banana and peeled, cut apple chunks but she was uninterested. I saw a picture on the forum today of mazuri(?). Is that OK for tortoises? I just got on Amazon and bought the book recommended by Madkins, South American Tortoises, and am hoping that will provide some helpful info on Chacos' diet.

Housing: I bought compressed coconut fiber, loose coconut fiber, and "forest floor bedding", thinking I would mix and spread that over newspaper in the bottom of the cage. Yes, since I have been her keeper we have always had a large shallow bowl (plant pot drainage saucers work well) of water to drink or soak in, but I have never seen her do it on her own. On hot days sometimes I will put her in, and she will put her head under the water and drink and drink, or sometimes just sip with her face halfway in. Sometimes she'll soak for awhile and sometimes will immediately climb out, giving me a reproachful look ("I'm not thirsty!"). I can definitely get the spring mix (I eat it myself!) and pick out the spinach. I also bought the ceramic lamp and stand recommended by Meg90.

So--how much heat and what kind of heat will Taco need over the winter do you think?

Her outdoor "pen" is a landscaping enclosure off of our patio that is effectively surrounded by landscape timbers high enough that she can't climb out. It has our birdbath, a large Austrian pine tree with euronymous growing around its base, some Virginia creeper, vinca, buttercup, geranium and a couple of whirling butterfly bushes, so the "substrate" is basically dirt and pine needles and pebbles. It is pretty dry except for one corner where there is a sprinkler head. It is not covered, but there are several good hiding places (she loves to dig herself into the pine needles till just her butt is sticking out) and our yard is completely fenced so there is minimal danger from predators, and I have the other half of the dog crate, with a bed of hay underneath and the 2'x2' board on top to stabilize it and provide extra cover from rain and wind. I was planning to let her toddle around there during the school year, when I substitute teach, on warm days. Here in Colorado it is usually about 75-85 degrees during the day, and cools to 45-55 at night, but of course I bring her in every night to her half, covered dog crate and hay bed, where she burrows in happily and sleeps till I take her out around 10:00 a.m. to head out to sunny garden spots, or the pen. Now she'll have the new tortoise house, and I will probably try to grow some of those favorite weeds in shallow dishes, maybe jar lids or small tupperwares, so she can have that "fresh" option.

OK that's a LOT of rambling, but I really do appreciate your taking the time to address some of the many details of proper tortoise care!

 

[Yvonne G]

I think your tortoise pen sounds great! All of the plants you listed are edible and I have most of them in my tortoise pens. The only worry would be the pine tree, but it sounds like it is not effecting her at all.

I can offer you nothing but praise for your efforts to make this tortoise healthy and happy.

GOOD JOB!!!

Yvonne

 

[Stephanie Logan]

THANK YOU! I know I hvae a long way to go, and am sure to be on this forum a lot asking for advice. I am glad this site exists.

 

[tortoisenerd]

In winter indoors, a single ceramic heat emitter may do for at night. I would use a Mercury Vapor Bulb in the day (12 hours or so); it gives off UVB, light, and heat. The MVBs come in 100 watts for a smaller enclosure and 160 watts for a larger enclosure. The Mega Ray, T-Rex Active UV, and Powersun models are the best. They are $50 and last 12 months. Get a 10 inch or wider diameter hood fixture, as deep as you can find, with a ceramic socket. Clamp it to a lamp stand. You can use a clamp lamp on its own for the ceramic heat emitter (or black light bulb). The MVB needs to have the bulb face parallel to the substrate and not be bumped. The heat emitters aren't so sensitive. How close the bulbs are to the substrate depends on room temperature, so the more adjustable the fixtures/stands are, the better.

Substrate sounds great. Glad you're working on the diet and everything! I would keep offering any foods that are good for her to see if you can expand what she'll eat. Make sure anything she eats from the yard is free from pesticides/fertilizers as well as any animal fecal matter.

Yes, Mazuri is a good supplement. Most don't feed it as a huge part of the diet, but as part of a varied diet it is great. You can order a 1 lb bag online to try it out.

You may want to get a water dish that is very easy for her to use, like a ramp or stair bowl, which encourages her to drink. My tort never used his water until I got the Groovy Jacuzzi dish. Now he goes in daily, especially when I put baby bath warm water in there.

Can you provide us any pictures of her enclosures?

Great job! Best wishes.

 

[Stephanie Logan]

Thanks Kate, I appreciate all the information. There is just so much to learn. The light I ordered is on this link: http://reptiledepot.com/domeheat.html, and was recommended by Meg90 on one of the lighting threads in the Products topic section of this forum. I was assuming it came with a bulb, but do I need to use an MVB instead? I will Google the ones you recommended and find a site to get them from if my lamp arrives without a bulb that is appropriate.
I didn't know tortoises couldn't digest food without heat. That may partially explain Taco's picky eating habits. I did give her some watermelon today after looking at the "nothing could be finer" photos, and she did pretty much the same thing of gobbling it down, calcium powder and all! I will look up the Groovy Jacuzzi dish as well. I do put Taco into a warm bath about once a week and she really seems to enjoy just soaking there for a few minutes. Sometimes this results in pee and/or poop, but not always. I do know that her turds have gone from soft and puddly to Tootsie Roll midgie size and shape, which seems to be a positive sign!

 

[tortoisenerd]

That is just a light fixture; no bulb. Especially for that price! You can also get those fixtures in hardware stores. The MVB is sold separately (about $50). You also need a stand for it (like the last one on that web page), $15-25.

The loose stools could have been from the diet too. If she doesn't seem to go in the water on her own, I would soak more like 3 times a week. I really love that water dish. I have the XL size. Look at the dimensions to see if it is too small for Taco to get in and turn around in though. One of the large ramp bowls or even a paint tray may be a better option.