supplementation question for those who have experience with Manouria

[biglove4bigtorts]

I invite comment from those more experienced than myself, regarding supplementing with calcium,D3, and vitamins. Please refer to the thread under Debateable Topics, titled How much is too much calcium?, to see my current regime' and add your input to that thread. If you don't supplement at all, please state why and if you think the amounts I use are considered safe, excessive, or appropriate within a different dosing schedule. Thank you in advance.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Andrew:

My foray into the Manouria started with two older adolescents, a male and a female Mep. They were both over 30lbs when I started caring for them. Because they captured me so well, I then ordered two hatchlings from Vic Morgan. Then received a full grown female Mee and a full grown female Mep. I had them all together in one large outdoor pen. I noticed the male Mep "practice" breeding with the smaller (25lbs) female Mee, but didn't think anything of it. A year later, she laid 49 eggs and 18 of them hatched.

This is all by way of introduction to how I came by having younger tortoises that needed supplementation, but didn't get it.

I always kept cuttle bone in the pen and in the baby habitats, but I never used vitamins or powders and I never saw them eat the cuttle bone.

By the time the intergrades were around 10 years old it was quite obvious that they had been severely lacking in their care. All of them had badly over-shot under jaws. Since the parents had perfect beaks, I attribute it to the fact that I didn't offer them calcium and vitamins when they were babies. Another thing they never got was animal protein. They look perfect in every other way...the nicely domed carapace, etc.

I have a three-year old Mep that I hatched here, and so far she is growing very nicely. I AM supplementing her. I give her a cuttle bone plus twice a week I sprinkle calcium over her food. She DOES eat the cuttle bone. I don't use D3 because they're all outside. I will occasionally also soak her in liquid bird vitamin-water. I offer her meal worms or night crawlers or crickets, but so far she hasn't sampled any.

These tortoises do tend to have parrot-beak. It even appears in the wild population, I have come to learn that it is pretty important to supplement their diet with vitamins and calcium.

 

[harris]

My group of 3 1/2 to 4 yr old Mee's have cuttlebone available to them 24/7, which they fully take advantage of.

Calcium powder with D3 (in indoor months) mixed in a Mazuri/vegetable mash, given twice weekly.

Redworms and nightcrawlers given 2 times per month. You really don't know the true speed of these guys until they see a worm wigglin around a couple feet away. It's priceless.

All are growing like weeds.

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

I value both of your responses. Harris, did you have yours as hatchlings or aquire them at an older age?

Yvonne, would I notice within a year if there was something lacking? My babies are approaching there second year and they were close to yearlings when I got them. They have doubled in size and show no problems with thier beaks or shells. I avoided supplements when the were fed on a ''summer'' diet, but now that winter is here and I rely on grocery greens and spring mix, I am supplementing lightly, but daily, with calcium and bee pollen, twice weekly with vitamins and calcium with D3. I use the Repashy Veggie Dust and the TNT, but still felt a pinch of additional calcium and vitamins wouldn't hurt.

I am curious to know more about your experience with protein, regarding its importance or lack thereof in the diet of these guys. Have you had any communications with Vic regarding his feeding protein? I am still reluctant to offer any to my babies. They eat thier greens and are healthy and I like it that way...lol I fear that protein may be harmful and at the least something they will come to expect in lieu of thier greens.

 

[Yvonne G]

My partner in the tortoises gave one of his intergrades (we split the intergrades, half for me, half for him) to Jim Buskirk up in the S.F. Bay area. He is a very knowledgeable turtle/tortoise person, and travels the world looking at them in the wild. He has written many papers on turtles and tortoises. He fed his baby night crawlers, slugs, crickets along with the veggies and fruit right from the beginning. My partner and I kept back 6 of the intergrades, which we still have (minus one who went walkabout last September). ALL six of ours have the bad beaks, while Jim's is a perfect specimen with a perfect beak. So I'm pretty sure the bug protein was helpful in making this tortoise healthy.

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

That is so interesting, considering your current little tort's refusal of wriggling morsels. I'm not seein any beak trouble thus far and I am supplementing with the bee pollen and will be a bit more heavy handed with the clover and fresh alfalfa this spring and summer. Hopefully, they get what they want from being outdoors in the way of worms, grubs, and other invertebrates, because I just can't bring myself to offer them bugs...I did with boxies and hingebacks, but my gut is telling me not to with these...I don't know why, since they are so similar in habitat and behavior to the other mentioned species. I also remember that story about them flipping over your pots and vacuuming up the worms, slugs, and snails that were hiding there. Maybe I will offer some pheonix worms at some point...I want them healthy, happy, and BIG...lol I wish there was an early indicater of deficiencies, before deformed beaks and shells.
Thank you for your replies Yvonne...it was your postings that helped decide to work with this species and I am always greatful for any information you share about them.

My partner in the tortoises gave one of his intergrades (we split the intergrades, half for me, half for him) to Jim Buskirk up in the S.F. Bay area. He is a very knowledgeable turtle/tortoise person, and travels the world looking at them in the wild. He has written many papers on turtles and tortoises. He fed his baby night crawlers, slugs, crickets along with the veggies and fruit right from the beginning. My partner and I kept back 6 of the intergrades, which we still have (minus one who went walkabout last September). ALL six of ours have the bad beaks, while Jim's is a perfect specimen with a perfect beak. So I'm pretty sure the bug protein was helpful in making this tortoise healthy.

 

[Len B]

The only supplements I use for the youngsters are cuttle bone and some times pinkie mice.For the hatchlings I put the piece of cuttle bone in water using some type of jar top that is to small for them to soak in,some use it some don't.I have never fed bugs or worms, but when they are outside they will scavenge and root through the leaf litter and soil, eating something for hours, I have never been able to see what they are looking for,whatever it is it is small.I also feed them mazuri but I don't moisten it I break it up into small pieces using pliers, I believe this helps to prevent beak problems. I also feed them more alocasia and mushrooms than most people feed theirs,and if there is a little mold on the veggies or fruit I leave it on and let them eat it.I sent 2 male mep(that came from him) and a pair of mee to Vic a few weeks ago and he compared the weights with his of the same age and they were about the same except the 6 year old mep was much larger than the ones he still had that had hatched the same year. The only difference in diet of the 14 year old and the 6 year old mep was mazuri, the 14 year would never eat mazuri.

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

It seems the conclusion is that they do need supplements, but no one can identify what will work across the board as a baseline and what sources are ok to use. Mazuri may have yeilded great results for Len, but would TNT, bee pollen, Repashy, and vitamins/calcium supplements do the same job for me, without the fillers in the Mazuri? IME montane animals are the most sensitive to oversupplementation. I think, based on what I am gathering, my supplement schedule will continue like this:
Monday- fresh foods only
Tuesday-Repashy,TNT, and Bee pollen sprinkled on fresh food
Wednesday- Calcium with D3 and vitamin supplements sprinkled on fresh food
Thursday-Repashy,TNT, and Bee pollen sprinkled on fresh food
Friday-Fresh Foods only
Saturday-Calcium with D3 and vitamin supplements sprinkled on fresh food
Sunday-Repashy,TNT and vitamins sprinkled on fresh food

This is a regime' for use in the cold months when the diet is made up of:
winter squash, chicory, spring mix, turnip greens, mustard greens, kale, collards, beet greens, chard, spring mix, cress, parsnips, arugala, optunia pads, mushrooms, and grated sweet potato.


In the Summer, I will probably swap the D3 calcium with plain calcium and use the Repashy/TNT/bee pollen mixture twice a week, with vitamins supplements twice a week as well.
The diet extends to include: mullein, safoin, clover, white mulberry, borage, nasturtium, rose, brambles, plantains, mallow, hibiscus, shasta daisy, cone flower, thistle, dandelion, violet, marigolds, colocasia, alocasia, grape, berris, figs, the occasional bit of banana, mint, nipplewort, sheppards purse, and other home-grown goods, in addition to the greens in the Winter diet.

 

[harris]

My knowledge and experience is nothing compared to Yvonne, Len, and some others. The only thing I can add is my group was in a new enlosure this year when they were kept outside. About 75% of it is in the woods. They spent the first week stripping all of the fungi off of the dead trees/logs. After that, for the next few weeks or so they were constantly digging through and trying to uproot the dead logs to get to the worms, bugs, and slugs. It was very entertaining to watch. On most days they would ignore most of food I offered them as I imagine they were full from gorging on whatever they were finding in the woods. They had everything cleaned out after about a month or so and they got back to normal with the foods I offer. My question to you is, why are you so dead set against offering them protein, when it is clear that it is a part of their natural diet?

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

You say it is clear that protein is a part of the wild diet, based on what you observe in captivity. Observations in the wild of adult tortoises have shown no protein being consumed. Maybe it was just that none was readily available, but wouldn't you expect the adults to be digging through leaf little and under log in thier natural habitat, looking for protein? If you feed an iguana tinned catfood, it will eat it and most will come to exclude greens and wild foods in favor of the unhealthy protein. Tortoises kept in captivity may consume the protein out of need for it, b/c they are lacking it in the plant choices we offer captives, or out of boredom, or because it is normal. I am not against it, just cautious and rightfully so, when it has been seen what animal protein does to a herbivore, when they are fed protein and not what they are intended to eat. I did add some cabbage white caterpillars to thier salad to gauge thier reaction...they ate them as if they were just part of the sald...no attraction to thier movement or smell...so they weren't selected specifically from the greens. I would have expected more excitement from an omnivore/insectivore...a bearded dragon would have knocked me over for wrigglin green worm.

 

[harris]

Those are great points. There is still very little known or written about this species and how it conducts itself in its natural habitat. I have to stick with my gut on this one , being that "forest tortoises" in general having protein as a part of their diet.

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

I think tortoises eat out of curiosity. When I placed pill bugs int he tort pen as janitors, the female snapped one up, b/c the movement grabbed her attention, then she just dropped it, realizeing it wasn't something she wanted to eat. I see nothing wrong with moderate mounts of insect protein, but draw the line at regular inclusions of red meats, poultry, tinned foods for mammalian pets, or even insects as more than a miniscule inclusion to the diet. If they do eat protein in the wild, it is mostly, if not all, invertebrate and makes up 5% or less of the diet, with fungi, fruits, and greens being the staple. I seek to offer my tortoises higher protein with bee pollen, foliage parts of legumes, like alflafa and clover, mushrooms, and supplements that are plant based. If they find worms outdoors or indulge in the occasional caterpillar or pill bug...then they are welcomed to have them.

 

[Len B]

Hey, Andrew, harris,and Yvonne, About the mazuri, I"m not sure it is necessary for the manouri family I used it and had to cut back the amounts that was given to the 6 year old because I thought it was growing to fast,and i"m not sure the growth slowed down I don't know if they need any supplements but most torts eating habits change as they mature.So I will give the youngsters some of what I will call extra protein sometimes but not always.I am not sure the emys emys, and phayrei eat the same thing in the wild.Since I have been keeping both I have noticed a slight difference in preference of chosen foods, and also a difference in biting power, the phayrei bite (chew) harder than the emys emys. Hoybye-Mortensen"s observations state that almost 70% of food intake of emys emys were plants of the alocasia family, but my phayrei eat more alcosia than emys emys, so does that mean they eat more alcosia in the wild? Mine also eat the stem and leaf but Vic Morgans(Vic feeds mazuri also) only eat either the stem or the leaf (i dont remeber witch)and the same is true according to Mortensen only part of the plant is eaten in his observations.And also Andrew you stated that no protein was observed being taken in the wild, No water has been observed being taken in the wild either, by drinking or moisture off a plant.This shows me that there is a lot to learn about their habits in the wild.We can only do what we think is best for them. If we all did it the same we would never learn what is actually best for them,As long as we communicate with each other, We will all gain knowledge. Len -------by the way what is repashy and tnt?----- I almost forgot,, I also think they smell and taste out of curiosity, I have seen them bite something and never touch it again, and smell things and not even bite it.

 

[Yvonne G]

My Manouria won't eat Mazuri. I can put down a bed of greens and veggies then plop down a couple scoops of moistened Mazuri on top. I don't ever stand there and watch them eat...too much to do, too little time! But when I go back by later, the Mazuri is still there but all the greens and veggies are gone. Quite a feat, picking out stuff from under that gloppy Mazuri.

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

Len-
TNT is Total Tortoise Nutrition (why isn't it TTN?) and Repashy is a similar product. Both are essentially dehydrated/freeze dried plants that we would normally feed our tortoise during the growing season. It supposedly complete as far as available calcium and vitamins and no other supplementation is said to be needed, but I disagree. It is sprinkle over food and therefore is not the same as if the tortoise were ingesting whole,fresh leaves. I believ it is an excellent balanceing tool and supplement, but not a cure all for a poor diet nor a magic bullet that delivers all the nessacary vitamins and minerals, so I also supplement.

As far as observations in the wild regarding water and protein:

It would not be suprising to find out that younger manouria eat invertebrates in the wild or even that older ones d, but it is relatively straight forward wo examine scat and see what the older tortoises were eating and in what quantities. Also, just breathing in the humid air contributes to the animals' hydration, so one could assume that, although manouria are forest swellers, they still have thick, dehydration resistant skin and probably don't need to drink all that much with the surrounding humidty acting as a boost to thier hydration. They also limit sun exposure and live in cooler areas than many other tortoises. I also forgot if water bodies were even present that the adults could have used in the study. Juveniles almost certainly drink out of pools that collect in fallen leaves. I think this a unique and fascinating species and hope to do right by them; growing them out with smooth, healthy shells and breeding my own babies.

 

[Yvonne G]

Total Nutrition for Tortoises

I've seen pictures of them in situ where they were swimming in slow moving streams.

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

LOL, Thank you Yvonne...I shoulda known I was having a blonde moment....comes with being a toe head.

That was my theory, the ones they observed weren't situated near large pools or areas of water. I grew up with box turtles and only rearely saw them in any form of water, though they certainly come out of hiding en masse after a rain. I think for such a hard to observe species, scat analysis would give the most accurate picture of the diet and scat analysis of different ages of torts, torts in different microclimates, and scat during different seasons would be VERY useful...though if it showed a 90% mushroom and colocasia/alocasia diet, how many keepers would/could replicate that?

 

[HLogic]

Also, just breathing in the humid air contributes to the animals' hydration, so one could assume that, although manouria are forest swellers, they still have thick, dehydration resistant skin and probably don't need to drink all that much...

I would be very cautious assuming they need little water. Manouria, like some other humid climate tortoises, excrete nitrogenous waste as urea, not uric acid as is typical for tortoises living xeric habitats. Uric acid production is thought to have developed as a mechanism of extracting/conserving water in urine. Some tortoises can 'switch' between urea and uric acid or combinations of the two, particularly those living in regions that have distinct dry and wet seasons. Manouria apparently cannot. Without sufficient hydration, urea and more importantly, other nitrogenous waste cannot be efficiently eliminated leading to various problems. In contrast, those torts which produce uric acid effectively eliminate the waste from their systems by solidifying and sequestering it.

BTW, the "petiole" mentioned in Høybye-Mortensen's thesis when speaking of Alocasia consumption refers to the 'stem' of the leaf. The animals observed did not eat the trunk of the larger Alocasia plants.

With regard to Mazuri, my torts would knock me into the bucket and then eat a hole through me to get to it - even (or especially) the adult wild caughts...

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

I'm not suggestign they be treated like an arid species. Mine are on moist coir and have a large water bowls for soaking, and the get soaked. I know for certain that it is rare that they use the water dish. I know when they do, byt the coir tracked into the water. I have seldom see them drink and never react to the soaking as if it were a long awaited manna from the heavens. My suggestion isn't that they need little moisture, but that their cool/humid habitat and think sking contribute to hydration and reduces the need for constant soaking/ drinking, when they are observed no using water sources in the wild.

Also, just breathing in the humid air contributes to the animals' hydration, so one could assume that, although manouria are forest swellers, they still have thick, dehydration resistant skin and probably don't need to drink all that much...

I would be very cautious assuming they need little water. Manouria, like some other humid climate tortoises, excrete nitrogenous waste as urea, not uric acid as is typical for tortoises living xeric habitats. Uric acid production is thought to have developed as a mechanism of extracting/conserving water in urine. Some tortoises can 'switch' between urea and uric acid or combinations of the two, particularly those living in regions that have distinct dry and wet seasons. Manouria apparently cannot. Without sufficient hydration, urea and more importantly, other nitrogenous waste cannot be efficiently eliminated leading to various problems. In contrast, those torts which produce uric acid effectively eliminate the waste from their systems by solidifying and sequestering it.

BTW, the "petiole" mentioned in Høybye-Mortensen's thesis when speaking of Alocasia consumption refers to the 'stem' of the leaf. The animals observed did not eat the trunk of the larger Alocasia plants.

With regard to Mazuri, my torts would knock me into the bucket and then eat a hole through me to get to it - even (or especially) the adult wild caughts...

 

[Yvonne G]

In the summer, my adults quite frequently sit in their water all night long. Little Emmie is in a tort table inside the Manouria shed and its always nice and toasty in there. She sits in her water all night most nights.