Tom:
I think probably the norm is more like what happened to yours and (was it Neal or Dean)'s Sudanese babies.
I think probably the norm is more like what happened to yours and (was it Neal or Dean)'s Sudanese babies.
sulcata, to breed or not?
- Thread starter Kapidolo Farms
- Start date
- Status
Tom said:
Proximity-related myopia. None of us can see all of them everywhere. You already decided how things are in your concept of this. Most fairground goldfish, five-and-dime RES of days past, and green anoles also go the way of compost after forms of neglect or mistakes in care take effect. Plenty of these sulcata babies also end up in states with a sulcata-intolerable winter. That decreases the convenience of looking after them and increases the probability that keepers/buyers will slip up. Lots of folks let the house heating run a little cooler to save money. It bugs my fiancee and I do not enjoy it because I tend to run hot, but that is part of my responsibility. That is a readily found issue impacting their well-being. Many buyers/keepers are apartment dwellers, which takes more doing to provide an enclosure with more limitations on space. People may be less likely to replace a $40 MVB frequently for their $40 sulcata, thereby adding an additional negative impact. Diets of iceberg lettuce are not uncommon. Giving them no drinking water source is not uncommon. Placing them on desiccating pellet substrates that also give poor purchase for muscle development is not uncommon. Not providing minerals is common. They can be seen as expensive.
The list is larger than this.
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2011
- Messages
- 685
The people I know in the Sarasota-Bradenton area who work at sanctuaries, zoos, rescues, wildlife rehabs, animal shelters, etc., say they receive requests "all the time" to take sub-adult and adult sulcatas. I don't know specifically how many requests that is, but it's definitely common here. I always wonder what actually happens to all the tortoises after they are refused by the rescues. Do people just let them go somewhere, or try harder to find new homes for them? Who knows...
And, judging by all of the sickly and deformed sulcatas TRN finds on Craig's List every week, I would venture to *guess* that is just the tip of the iceberg, and that a significantly large number of these animals die in captivity before reaching adulthood. Yvonne has a great point. It seems like every day, there are at least a handful of posts from concerned new tort owners that their animals are sick. These are the smart people, the ones who see a problem and are resourceful enough to reach out to TFO or somewhere else for help. Think of all the dummies out there who have torts and don't even know the difference between one that is healthy and sick? I see that heartbreaking stuff everyday, and I'm not even looking very hard.
And, judging by all of the sickly and deformed sulcatas TRN finds on Craig's List every week, I would venture to *guess* that is just the tip of the iceberg, and that a significantly large number of these animals die in captivity before reaching adulthood. Yvonne has a great point. It seems like every day, there are at least a handful of posts from concerned new tort owners that their animals are sick. These are the smart people, the ones who see a problem and are resourceful enough to reach out to TFO or somewhere else for help. Think of all the dummies out there who have torts and don't even know the difference between one that is healthy and sick? I see that heartbreaking stuff everyday, and I'm not even looking very hard.
Interesting all the different perspectives on this. We've all seen the bad stuff. No reasonable person will argue that SOME of the thousands of sulcatas produced annually are not raised or cared for well. The unanswerable question is: How many? It seems most people think it is a lot worse than I do. Over the years I have certainly seen multiple examples of every bad thing that has been pointed out, but I have seen far far more that we're well cared for and have a good life. I discover new ones all the time. My job puts me in contact with a new crew of 100-200 people several times a week. Frequently one of my tortoise shirts or hats will strike up a tortoise conversation. The vast majority of the stories have happy endings. I also worked retail for around 8 years. Sure we had the occasional idiot, but most people wanted and took our advice and had healthy tortoises. I already recounted what happens at our local animal shelters. Large sulcatas are adopted literally the day they become available, and very few come through there in the course of a year.
My next question then is: What are we doing about it? I sure spend a lot of my time trying to correct the very problems that Baoh enumerated. Some people think the solution is to stop breeding them. That will never happen. Eventually, the very sentiment that is being expressed here, the sentiment that I don't agree with, will probably result in the government getting involved, and that will NOT solve the problem, nor will it make anyone who keeps tortoises happy. I suggest we solve our own problems from within. This has worked very well for the SCUBA industry. Can't get your tanks filled without a NAUI or PADI card, yet there is no law that says they can't fill them for you. I'd love to see some sort of industry wide guidelines put into place and followed before the government gets involved. ... but that's a whole new thread...
My next question then is: What are we doing about it? I sure spend a lot of my time trying to correct the very problems that Baoh enumerated. Some people think the solution is to stop breeding them. That will never happen. Eventually, the very sentiment that is being expressed here, the sentiment that I don't agree with, will probably result in the government getting involved, and that will NOT solve the problem, nor will it make anyone who keeps tortoises happy. I suggest we solve our own problems from within. This has worked very well for the SCUBA industry. Can't get your tanks filled without a NAUI or PADI card, yet there is no law that says they can't fill them for you. I'd love to see some sort of industry wide guidelines put into place and followed before the government gets involved. ... but that's a whole new thread...
In my opinion, one good solution to the baby-sulcatas-die problem is to make sure each baby sulcata goes to a new home with a GOOD care sheet. A couple years ago the pet industry was mandated to pass out care sheets when they sold animals and birds. They (pet stores) did this ok for a while, but they don't do it any more. And, if you're a pet store or in the pet selling industry, make sure your employees read and understand the care for each animal you sell. So much bad info is passed along to new animal keepers.
When I was a kid red eared sliders were very cheap. Every kid had one or more. I never saw one over a year old. I would guess that thousands upon thousands died. Green iguanas - same thing. Anoles - same thing. Why would anyone think that sulcatas would fare any differently? Are there thousands upon thousands of sulcatas in the US? There should be. If not were are they? Have people all of a sudden changed? Are we better than we were? Why don't any of my friends know anyone else with tortoises?
yagyujubei said:
Yes there are. I have heard estimates of a million or more. I don't know what the percentage is, but it seems like a third of the backyards in the Phoenix area have at least one sulcata. Pretty similar around me. My little dirt road community has around 12 houses. 3 of us have sulcatas. And two have DTs.
For your second question: My guess is your climate. It is not easy to house large tortoises with frozen winters. I wouldn't do it if I lived there. I'd keep small species that could live outside all summer and then hibernate all winter. Just my preference, but judging from your question, I am not alone in my thinking. I have friends and family in your state, and none of them have tortoises or know much about them.
The problem with basing any of these "statistics" on "I need help" posts in a forum is that the people with perfectly healthy sulcatas or other torts don't come on the forum and say "my sulcata is doing great." If they did, there would be 100 new threads a day saying just that. For every one you see someone posting with a problem (almost all related to improper care) there's 100+ that are doing just fine. The ones you see on Craigslist that are bumpy or that get turned in to rescues are coming from the people that are less than enthusiastic about the care (lazy owner's care = easily given away once it gets too big). I've come across sulcatas in backyards here in Vegas that I never knew were here even while helping a friend move or whatever, and all of them are strong as an ox, mostly with very smooth pretty shells. These people have no interest in announcing it to the world. If it was struggling, they more likely would "look to the world (or TFO)" for help, giving the impression that all these sulcatas are having problems.
Thank you Tyler for articulating this so well.
You say 100+ for every person asking for help. I estimate it much higher, based on what I've seen and how many are sold every year. Of course all of us are just guessing, but my guess would be 1000 or more healthy ones that are doing just fine for every one that someone comes here looking for help.
You say 100+ for every person asking for help. I estimate it much higher, based on what I've seen and how many are sold every year. Of course all of us are just guessing, but my guess would be 1000 or more healthy ones that are doing just fine for every one that someone comes here looking for help.
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 1,109
Breed em!!!! There can NEVER be too many tortoises. I agree with Tom and Tyler. There is an entire world of healthy thriving tortoises outside TFO. TFO doesn't even represent a tiny fraction of the number of keepers around.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2012
- Messages
- 5,173
- Location (City and/or State)
- South of Southern California, but not Mexico
acrantophis' idea for secret tortoise police is sorta a funny way to do the SCUBA tank fill situation. One deal with that though (I guess) is that a dive shop could be sued for wrongful death if a diver passed away. I can't imagine that with a pet.
The 1:100 ratio of bad result to good result is kinda an attractive response. It seems to be a corollary to the idea that for every one customer who complains about service, 100 were happy, but did not fill out the customer feedback form. But how many people would want to share post death stories?
The low price does make the sulcatas a throw-away novelty to many folks. I base this on so many consumer items I see at curbside on trash day. We would be banking on peoples' values, the value that a living thing deserves some quality to life. I think this (TFO) is the choir, so it's hard to believe how little so many people who would buy a pet would do so without corresponding values.
I keep thinking, as I read so many interesting POV here, about the iguana calls at the zoo I worked at. So many people DID know the correct care, based on care sheets, and what they read, but were just lazy, and used minimal care, hoping they had an animal that would thrive anyways. On the few sulcata or other large tortoise calls we might get, I would suggest that even though sulcata are a bit smaller than the zoo's island giants, the owner ought to look at them as needed that kind of space etc. as the zoo provided for the island giants. That message connected well, by the "aha" I would get on the phone, don't know about the result.
One big difference between sulcatas and the other big herps, let alone dogs etc, that get out of hand, is that as brute as a sulcata may be, most people just don't see a dangerous animal when they look at a tortoise.
I think the price thing would be good, but it ain't the American way, and the collective TFO sulcata breeders' association would not be a powerful enough oligopoly to make it work. If I bred them, I would undercut your price, I am not special that way.
Sulcata are THE CHEAP tortoise, not even PetSamrt 'on sale' Russians are for less. So $$ price and the death of sulcatas may just be the philosophical "price" for the cohort of new tortoise owners in the world. I would seek that all those people have a good experience, but that zoo phone recall, suggests to me, that the good experience barrier may not dis-clude the death of the pet.
There are several other interesting topics that have been re-opened or sprung new here in this thread. DeanS hit a very interesting one with the "mutt" POV. I tend to get it, as a POV, and can see how among this choir it could gain alot of traction. I always get my cat or dog from a shelter, so I sorta like that kind of mutt. I am quite the opposite with tortoises, but I do use 'scientific' POV as to whether there are species, subspecies, or clines. And yeah, I know that caused many issues in the Indotestudo genus.
Will
The 1:100 ratio of bad result to good result is kinda an attractive response. It seems to be a corollary to the idea that for every one customer who complains about service, 100 were happy, but did not fill out the customer feedback form. But how many people would want to share post death stories?
The low price does make the sulcatas a throw-away novelty to many folks. I base this on so many consumer items I see at curbside on trash day. We would be banking on peoples' values, the value that a living thing deserves some quality to life. I think this (TFO) is the choir, so it's hard to believe how little so many people who would buy a pet would do so without corresponding values.
I keep thinking, as I read so many interesting POV here, about the iguana calls at the zoo I worked at. So many people DID know the correct care, based on care sheets, and what they read, but were just lazy, and used minimal care, hoping they had an animal that would thrive anyways. On the few sulcata or other large tortoise calls we might get, I would suggest that even though sulcata are a bit smaller than the zoo's island giants, the owner ought to look at them as needed that kind of space etc. as the zoo provided for the island giants. That message connected well, by the "aha" I would get on the phone, don't know about the result.
One big difference between sulcatas and the other big herps, let alone dogs etc, that get out of hand, is that as brute as a sulcata may be, most people just don't see a dangerous animal when they look at a tortoise.
I think the price thing would be good, but it ain't the American way, and the collective TFO sulcata breeders' association would not be a powerful enough oligopoly to make it work. If I bred them, I would undercut your price, I am not special that way.
Sulcata are THE CHEAP tortoise, not even PetSamrt 'on sale' Russians are for less. So $$ price and the death of sulcatas may just be the philosophical "price" for the cohort of new tortoise owners in the world. I would seek that all those people have a good experience, but that zoo phone recall, suggests to me, that the good experience barrier may not dis-clude the death of the pet.
There are several other interesting topics that have been re-opened or sprung new here in this thread. DeanS hit a very interesting one with the "mutt" POV. I tend to get it, as a POV, and can see how among this choir it could gain alot of traction. I always get my cat or dog from a shelter, so I sorta like that kind of mutt. I am quite the opposite with tortoises, but I do use 'scientific' POV as to whether there are species, subspecies, or clines. And yeah, I know that caused many issues in the Indotestudo genus.
Will
As Baoh said, its all promixity-related. We all have our own experiences within our own area's. We really need several experienced members in every state to know what actually happens.....
After what shellys said, I believe maybe the situation is worse in Florida? Especially south florida....Sadly, the phrase "south florida scum-bag" was not coined out of humor; judging by ads on local classifieds sites for all animals, not just tortoises, a majority of people do not care correctly for there animals. They very likely may know the proper care, but they have no desire to give it.
I really don't think there is much we can do about this, sadly, besides more and more rescues to take all of the unwanted tortoises. As you said Tom, the last thing wanted would be the government involved. And we will definitely never stop breeding them. What some would call a solution is to require a license for breeding, but it wouldn't work. Just like cats; many rescues think we should require a license for breeding and owning, but its just another step of diminishing our rights.
Tim, I would definitely stay there could be TOO many tortoises. There are WAY to many cats and dogs in this world, the result of irresponsible breeding. It could happen with tortoises just as easily.
After what shellys said, I believe maybe the situation is worse in Florida? Especially south florida....Sadly, the phrase "south florida scum-bag" was not coined out of humor; judging by ads on local classifieds sites for all animals, not just tortoises, a majority of people do not care correctly for there animals. They very likely may know the proper care, but they have no desire to give it.
I really don't think there is much we can do about this, sadly, besides more and more rescues to take all of the unwanted tortoises. As you said Tom, the last thing wanted would be the government involved. And we will definitely never stop breeding them. What some would call a solution is to require a license for breeding, but it wouldn't work. Just like cats; many rescues think we should require a license for breeding and owning, but its just another step of diminishing our rights.
Tim, I would definitely stay there could be TOO many tortoises. There are WAY to many cats and dogs in this world, the result of irresponsible breeding. It could happen with tortoises just as easily.
RedfootsRule said:
The difference is, there is no overpopulation of tortoises in shelters, contrary to popular belief. The shelters that have tortoises "stacking up" are charging a retail price to let them go. The big rescue in Phoenix that was claiming to have hundreds of sulcatas and everyone was crying about how sad this was, I sent an e-mail to them saying I'd be there Saturday with a trailer to pick up 40 of them, and they basically responded "Great! They're $10 per pound (or whatever the dollar amount was, it wasn't cheap)." Tortoises are cheap to feed (unlike dogs and cats) and easy to house in large numbers in one area (unlike dogs and cats). As much as some of us want there to be, there's no tortoise crisis here!
TylerStewart said:
I'm going to risk saying that the line between some rescue operations and hoarders is a thin one.
Edna said:
There very well may be, and I'm certainly not going to argue that point, but I don't know of any "rescues" that are filled with tortoises and are also eager and actively trying to find them good homes. I'm sure there's a few in the Northeast probably where there's less backyards that they can be easily turned loose in, but generally speaking and certainly when compared to dogs & cats, there'd be no comparison.
Tyler, it is true that there isn't much of a stack-up of tortoises in rescues now; I'm talking about in the future. That's my comparison of dogs and cats; if something isn't done, there could be within a few years. However, at the same time, there might not be. People don't give the tortoises proper care because they're cheap, and then the tortoises die, resulting in no reduction in demand.
Nobody here "wants" there to be a tortoise crisis. The debate is more whether there IS one. Thats why members are sharing their experiences and opinions on what happens to all of the babies. From my POV, a large percentage of them receive bad care and live unhealthy lives, or die. However, other members seem to see a lot better care of tortoises.
Nobody here "wants" there to be a tortoise crisis. The debate is more whether there IS one. Thats why members are sharing their experiences and opinions on what happens to all of the babies. From my POV, a large percentage of them receive bad care and live unhealthy lives, or die. However, other members seem to see a lot better care of tortoises.
- Status
Similar threads
New Posts
-
Setting up for a Russian Tortoise - Constructive comments welcome- Latest: Alex and the Redfoot
-
-
-
-