Why do people breed Sulcata's

[Candy]

This is a question that I've wanted to ask ever since I started reading threads and posts on this website. After what I saw today I'm going to go ahead and ask it. I thought some of you might be offended, but now it just comes down to right and wrong to me. Today my husband and I were headed to a farmers market, but I wanted to stop by a petstore first to look at some bird cages. After we looked I decided to see if they had any tortoises there and low and behold there were two big Sulcatas in this 6ft x 2ft enclosure (it was around that size we didn't measure it). One of the Sulcatas was around 50lbs and the other I would say was a good 35lbs. both males. There was some shedded stuff at the bottom of the enclosure and no water at all in there. I asked the girl that helped us with the cages where their water was and she said that they get it from the romaine lettuce that they eat. I told her that is not correct and they need water at all times and even to soak in. She seemed surprised. From being on this forum I knew I had to ask for the owner of this place and they were nice and wrote it down for me. I came home and printed out a care sheet and took it back to her and am sending one to the owner tomorrow. She was very nice actually and I also gave her this website and told her that when she sold any she should hand out one of these caresheets and give them this address. She said it was a good idea. Now is there anything to be done about the enclosure that they're being kept in should I contact the SPCA on that? The thing is that they also had about 5 or 6 babies in a tank to sell too. Why are people breeding something so big? I know that a lot of them go to rescues. I just think that is not a very responsible thing to do since these creatures grow to be more than 100lbs and most people don't have the proper space for them. Hopefully I will get some good responses on this and someone can make me understand why people would do this for a living or a hobby.

 

[KQ6AR]

Hi Candy,
You won't get an argument from me, I agree with you. If anyone wants a sucata, I think their only choice should be a >50# tortoise. At least that way they'll realize what their getting into. I don't think the pet stores that sell the hatchlings make sure the customer knows what they are getting into.
Anyway its a sore subject for me also.

 

[Laura]

MONEY! and the y have NO clue the pressure they are putting on the rescues or dont care. Its neeat to have babies.. they are cute. but how many die? Do they give proper education? how many people can really house them properly?
If the majority of them die, which they probably do, is it ok to cont breeding? Is it right?
I dont know...

 

[Candy]

I think that the petstores and the breeders have an obligation to inform people about how to take care of these living things. I mean it's not like your buying a piece of clothing or furniture. You're buying a living reptile. I don't know how they can go home at night if they don't give the right information to keep them healthy. It should be a law. And you're right Laura it is all about the money and nothing else.

 

[terryo]

I agree Laura...MONEY...Here in NY we have the 4 in. law also Boxies are illegal to sell...as is Iguana's.....BUT...if you know someone who works in a pet store or owns one you can get anything..if you ask someone to get you a tortoise hatchling ...that is what they usually come up with... a Sulcata hatchling. The almighty dollar is what counts in most any situation...very sad.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

First of all...I am totally against breeding Sulcata. But that is an old debate, some for some con.
You shouldn't get too upset about the size of the pen that they are kept in because (I think) they are just housed that way while they are for sale. So find out first if they are kept that way while they are for sale before you get too upset. Small pet shops don't have a lot of room to display their animals. And Sulcata don't drink much water so not seeing a water dish is not too terrible. I offer Bob water every other day or so because if he's not drinking and there is water in his bowl he will drag it over to his pile of hay and slip it all on the hay. In a small pet shop I would hope to see water in there 3 times a week.
Now...on the West Coast we all know that Sulcata are like feral cats; over bred and not cared for. Our rescues are full, most won't take Sulcatas anymore and no zoos will take them. On the West Coast we would almost string up someone for breeding Sulcata...BUT...that's NOT the case on the East Coast for the most part. Their rescues aren't over burdened. They are looking to buy/adopt/rescue Sulcata there. We have a forum member who says he can find homes for all the Sulcata we on the West Coast would like to get rid of. So we could start shipping our Sulcata to the East Coast except it's just too darned expensive...

 

[egyptiandan]

Oooooooooo a bit of deja vu We have a pretty big thread going about just this Candy http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-3231.html

Danny

 

[Candy]

Oooooooooo a bit of deja vu We have a pretty big thread going about just this Candy http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-3231.html

Danny

Now that I went to that thread Danny I do remember it. This morning when I came home from the petstore I looked for threads that had the Sulcata care sheet on them, but to tell you the truth it was just to much to go through all of them to find it so I yahoo'd Sulcata care sheet and found quite a few there. You guys find these threads so easy, but not me so I start new ones.

---

First of all...I am totally against breeding Sulcata. But that is an old debate, some for some con.
You shouldn't get too upset about the size of the pen that they are kept in because (I think) they are just housed that way while they are for sale. So find out first if they are kept that way while they are for sale before you get too upset. Small pet shops don't have a lot of room to display their animals. And Sulcata don't drink much water so not seeing a water dish is not too terrible. I offer Bob water every other day or so because if he's not drinking and there is water in his bowl he will drag it over to his pile of hay and slip it all on the hay. In a small pet shop I would hope to see water in there 3 times a week.
Now...on the West Coast we all know that Sulcata are like feral cats; over bred and not cared for. Our rescues are full, most won't take Sulcatas anymore and no zoos will take them. On the West Coast we would almost string up someone for breeding Sulcata...BUT...that's NOT the case on the East Coast for the most part. Their rescues aren't over burdened. They are looking to buy/adopt/rescue Sulcata there. We have a forum member who says he can find homes for all the Sulcata we on the West Coast would like to get rid of. So we could start shipping our Sulcata to the East Coast except it's just too darned expensive...

Maggie, is it O.K. to put two males of their size together in that size of an enclosure. Will one hurt the other one? I told the girl there that they usually try to knock each other over being males that it wasn't a good thing to house them together. I felt bad for the little one when I went back he tried to get to me through the glass with his mouth.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Males generally won't fight when there is no female present. *generally*. The little one was just trying to get you to feed him

 

[Candy]

Males generally won't fight when there is no female present. *generally*. The little one was just trying to get you to feed him

Maggie I knew you would know. I feel quite a bit better now. Not that it's the best situation for both of them. I wish they never had to see a petstore and to be subject to that kind of environment. I wish they were at your house and you could take care of them like you do Bob and they could be wild and free.

 

[reptylefreek]

I think that its really good of you to print out a caresheet, especially if they are willing to take it. Pet store employees are just listening to orders so if you give them a reason to do research they can inform customers better. That girl will hopefully get on here and find out some real quality info that she can take back to work with her. And here on the west coast its really strange to see that large of a sulcata in a pet store, I wonder where it came from.

 

[Candy]

I agree with you that she did seem very interested when I mentioned the tortoise forum. She didn't know that there was such a site and I myself am hoping that she will come here and learn more since she does work with reptiles. I was surprised at myself that I didn't get mad I was just concerned and I think that comes from learning from the people on this site. I also thought they were pretty big to be in a petstore. This used to be family owned (way back when) and my husband says they've had there fair share of complaints and have even been shut down once or twice. When the manager gave me the owners name it's different then the previous owner so I think it's probably switched hands now. They do sell puppies in there and to me that's not a good thing. All one can do is hope to educate so things can change and hopefully the care sheet will do that.

 

[-EJ]

Because they can and it is the perfect... most adaptable... chelonian pet.

You do realize that the Sulcata was extremely rare as a pet 20 years ago (which is not as long as it seems to some). They now go for as low as $33 each retail in the trade. I guess it all depends on if you are a glass half full or a glass half empty kind of person.

Wrong is the animal disappearing in the wild. Overproducing the animal... I can debate that one. Then... consider that the private sector is responsible... think about all that.

As to your situation... sounds pretty judgemental to me.

Considering the numbers sold... relatively few go to rescues.

This is a question that I've wanted to ask ever since I started reading threads and posts on this website. After what I saw today I'm going to go ahead and ask it. I thought some of you might be offended, but now it just comes down to right and wrong to me. Today my husband and I were headed to a farmers market, but I wanted to stop by a petstore first to look at some bird cages. After we looked I decided to see if they had any tortoises there and low and behold there were two big Sulcatas in this 6ft x 2ft enclosure (it was around that size we didn't measure it). One of the Sulcatas was around 50lbs and the other I would say was a good 35lbs. both males. There was some shedded stuff at the bottom of the enclosure and no water at all in there. I asked the girl that helped us with the cages where their water was and she said that they get it from the romaine lettuce that they eat. I told her that is not correct and they need water at all times and even to soak in. She seemed surprised. From being on this forum I knew I had to ask for the owner of this place and they were nice and wrote it down for me. I came home and printed out a care sheet and took it back to her and am sending one to the owner tomorrow. She was very nice actually and I also gave her this website and told her that when she sold any she should hand out one of these caresheets and give them this address. She said it was a good idea. Now is there anything to be done about the enclosure that they're being kept in should I contact the SPCA on that? The thing is that they also had about 5 or 6 babies in a tank to sell too. Why are people breeding something so big? I know that a lot of them go to rescues. I just think that is not a very responsible thing to do since these creatures grow to be more than 100lbs and most people don't have the proper space for them. Hopefully I will get some good responses on this and someone can make me understand why people would do this for a living or a hobby.

 

[Candy]

If seeing something trapped in a box that is not big enough to hold them and let them have freedom is judgmental than you've got me. This petstore has already been sited more than once or did you not read that part? I find it hard to believe (from what I've seen on here and at the reptile shows that Sulcata's are going to be extinct anytime soon. And as for the rescues you could be right because I think the majority of them die before they make it to the rescues, but I'll wait for the ones who do rescue them like Maggie or Yvonne to post their information for you. From what I've seen at the reptile shows it is the equivalent of what puppy mills do.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Neither Yvonne nor I will post any information for EJ. He lives on the East Coast and has said in the past that he can find homes for any number of Sulcata that we can send to him. So in his part of the world like I said before, they don't see Sulcata like we do, over bred, abused, mistreated and unwanted.
EJ is a very experienced keeper and has written several books on keeping different species. In fact if memory serves, one book he wrote was on keeping Sulcata and Leopards. I think another was on keeping Russians. OK, now EJ...where's my money for the pitch I just gave for your books???

 

[-EJ]

yea... they are not going to become extinct anytime soon... because of the pet trade.

As to rescues... I take in quite a few a year. I'm not a rescue. I keep a few and find homes for the rest. I've been doing that for years. I don't need the badge. The point is that I can always find a home for these 'unwanted' sulcata.

As to the enclosure... I've kept many tortoises in small enclosures... until they outgrow them.

The shops... those enclosures are temporary.

Every Sulcata breeder I know is as passionate about the hobby as you or I.

You really need to look past the hype.

If seeing something trapped in a box that is not big enough to hold them and let them have freedom is judgmental than you've got me. This petstore has already been sited more than once or did you not read that part? I find it hard to believe (from what I've seen on here and at the reptile shows that Sulcata's are going to be extinct anytime soon. And as for the rescues you could be right because I think the majority of them die before they make it to the rescues, but I'll wait for the ones who do rescue them like Maggie or Yvonne to post their information for you. From what I've seen at the reptile shows it is the equivalent of what puppy mills do.

 

[Stephanie Logan]

http://harpoandfriends.homestead.com/Harpostory.html

People who want a Sulcata really do need to read Harpo's story at the link above. I thought it was funny and it was clear that the owner loved her reptile "project in the works", but the essay truly reveals the amount of time, space and food that are necessary to properly house these magnificent creatures!

Once again, thanks for the laugh, Maggie. Bob dragging his water dish over to his hay pile to wet it down...you really need to post some video of this character.

 

[-EJ]

you are sooooooooooooo sweet. Tank you.

My offer still stands... I can find all the homes you need.

To put it in perspective... as many that are sold... are they really a problem?

Neither Yvonne nor I will post any information for EJ. He lives on the East Coast and has said in the past that he can find homes for any number of Sulcata that we can send to him. So in his part of the world like I said before, they don't see Sulcata like we do, over bred, abused, mistreated and unwanted.
EJ is a very experienced keeper and has written several books on keeping different species. In fact if memory serves, one book he wrote was on keeping Sulcata and Leopards. I think another was on keeping Russians. OK, now EJ...where's my money for the pitch I just gave for your books???

---

These are extremes and are not the norm... again... consider how many are sold and how many get passed on.

http://harpoandfriends.homestead.com/Harpostory.html

People who want a Sulcata really do need to read Harpo's story at the link above. I thought it was funny and it was clear that the owner loved her reptile "project in the works", but the essay truly reveals the amount of time, space and food that are necessary to properly house these magnificent creatures!

Once again, thanks for the laugh, Maggie. Bob dragging his water dish over to his hay pile to wet it down...you really need to post some video of this character.

 

[Candy]

http://harpoandfriends.homestead.com/Harpostory.html

People who want a Sulcata really do need to read Harpo's story at the link above. I thought it was funny and it was clear that the owner loved her reptile "project in the works", but the essay truly reveals the amount of time, space and food that are necessary to properly house these magnificent creatures!

Once again, thanks for the laugh, Maggie. Bob dragging his water dish over to his hay pile to wet it down...you really need to post some video of this character.

That story truly is wonderful. If anyone was thinking of buying one of these huge creatures they should definitely read this story first. Actually it kind of reminds me of Maggie's Bob except Bob is about 70 lbs so a bit bigger the Harpo was. I love to see people's Sulcatas on this site, but I have to admire them for raising them (when they're raised properly I mean). I love to see Bob and Dudley they are characters. Thanks for posting the story hopefully people read it and learn something from it.

 

[-EJ]

I guess you missed this in another post...

The photo has been well used... Those tortoises are 100lb+ each.

http://harpoandfriends.homestead.com/Harpostory.html

People who want a Sulcata really do need to read Harpo's story at the link above. I thought it was funny and it was clear that the owner loved her reptile "project in the works", but the essay truly reveals the amount of time, space and food that are necessary to properly house these magnificent creatures!

Once again, thanks for the laugh, Maggie. Bob dragging his water dish over to his hay pile to wet it down...you really need to post some video of this character.

That story truly is wonderful. If anyone was thinking of buying one of these huge creatures they should definitely read this story first. Actually it kind of reminds me of Maggie's Bob except Bob is about 70 lbs so a bit bigger the Harpo was. I love to see people's Sulcatas on this site, but I have to admire them for raising them (when they're raised properly I mean). I love to see Bob and Dudley they are characters. Thanks for posting the story hopefully people read it and learn something from it.