Star tortoises and Cactus

[Redfoot NERD]

I've never fed mine cactus.. but have recently acquired some and they ate it O.K.

My concern is the extremely high "carb" content. I say extreme because I've never fed mine any fruit.. ( and I don't know anyone who has kept them for any length of time that has ).. for the 4 years I've kept them.

Since I have access to it now.. and the calcium/phos. ratio is so good.. I would like to make it a part of their 'staple' diet - if their system can handle it.

Who really knows?

NERD

 

[Tim/Robin]

We feed ours cactus and they love it. I have read that it is ok to feed them cactus. Is it carbohydrates that they have problems with? Simple carbohydrates are the sugars, while complex carbs are starches and fiber, we all know fiber is good and needed in tortoises. So, I would imagine that it is simple sugars you want to avoid (fructose, sucrose, etc) not simply "carbs". (Nopalea Grande, Nopales Opuntia, Prickly Pear) Opuntia cochenillifera has 3.34g carbohydrates per 100 grams of cactus and 2.3g of fiber. Is this "really" high? Romain lettuce, a commonly accepted food for tortoises, has 3.3g carbohydrates per 100 grams and 2.1g fiber. So they are very comparable in nutritional values.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

We feed ours cactus and they love it. I have read that it is ok to feed them cactus. Is it carbohydrates that they have problems with? Simple carbohydrates are the sugars, while complex carbs are starches and fiber, we all know fiber is good and needed in tortoises. So, I would imagine that it is simple sugars you want to avoid (fructose, sucrose, etc) not simply "carbs". (Nopalea Grande, Nopales Opuntia, Prickly Pear) Opuntia cochenillifera has 3.34g carbohydrates per 100 grams of cactus and 2.3g of fiber. Is this "really" high? Romain lettuce, a commonly accepted food for tortoises, has 3.3g carbohydrates per 100 grams and 2.1g fiber. So they are very comparable in nutritional values.

Tim romaine is on the bottom of the 'greens' list! NOT acceptable! I will let mine fast before feeding romaine.. the calcium/phos. ratio is upside down!

Sure stars will eat cactus.. most torts are opportunistic.. but what about high carbs long-term???

NERD

 

[Tim/Robin]

It all comes down to differing opinions. In turning to those who have successfully kept star tortoises for years, cactus and romaine have worked well as a part of the diet. I think the key here AGAIN, is variety. No one food alone should ever be considered a complete diet. We cannot get all the nutrients we need from a single food, it can't be any different with tortoises.
My point was, which carbohydrates are the problem? In the reading I have done, and it is a lot, it seems that simple sugars are the ones to avoid in this species of tortoises.

 

[Itort]

Some comparsions per pound: Dandelion = 41.73 gm carb 848.21 mg Cal 299.37 mg Phos 204.12 calories Grape Leaves = 78.37 gm carb 1644.39 mg Cal 412.23 mg Phos 421 calories Collards= 32.20 gm carb 131.54 mg Cal 45.36 mg Phos 140.61 calories Prickly Pear Fruit= 43.54 gm carb 254.01 mg Cal 108.86 mg Phos 185.97 calories Prickly Pear Pads= 15.35 gm carb 738.39 mg Cal 77.01 mg Phos 72.48 calories. This from www.chelonia.org/Articles/nutrientanalysis.htm

 

[ruanda]

I think the key here AGAIN, is variety. No one food alone should ever be considered a complete diet. We cannot get all the nutrients we need from a single food, it can't be any different with tortoises.

That's exactly what I was going to say when I first read this post!
Variety is indeed the key, or the answer, if I may say so...
Never offering the same food, never creating vicious or wrong routines on feeding tortoises.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Why are the newbies going off on an issue that has nothing to do with the question?

If anyone wants to start some debate on the importance of variety.. go ahead ------ on your own thread!

I'm still waiting to hear from [ or how about a link to ] anyone who has more than a year of experience.. feeding their star(s) cactus.

Keep smiling.. we're listening...

BTW.. my concern was sparked when reading the 'stats' on Rivenrock.com - http://rivenrock.com/nutrients.htm

Another example of "internet nonsense"??? Or was the 'site Itort posted.. one I have relied on also! Cactus is higher in carbs than dandelion. Do not all carbs turn to sugar?

Nerd

 

[stells]

Yet another rude posting, this is a public forum Terry anyone can post.

And

I am going to even though i haven't had my star for a year

The one thing i will say about feeding Opuntia is it will give any tortoise loose stools if fed to much... so the variety is the key arguement is actually a valid one

 

[Itort]

Why are the newbies going off on an issue that has nothing to do with the question?

If anyone wants to start some debate on the importance of variety.. go ahead ------ on your own thread!

I'm still waiting to hear from [ or how about a link to ] anyone who has more than a year of experience.. feeding their star(s) cactus.

Keep smiling.. we're listening...

BTW.. my concern was sparked when reading the 'stats' on Rivenrock.com - http://rivenrock.com/nutrients.htm

Another example of "internet nonsense"??? Or was the 'site Itort posted.. one I have relied on also! Cactus is higher in carbs than dandelion. Do not all carbs turn to sugar?

Nerd

Terry you are confusing fruit with pads(leaves ).Prickly Pear Fruit=43.54 gm carb/ Prickly Pear Pads=15.35 gm carb. Dandelion Leaves=41.73 gm carb. What you have been feeding are pads. The diet of my stars consists of leaves (prickly pear, mulberry, and grape) not the fruits. As you will agree prickly pear is only part of the complete diet as are hibiscus, dandelions, plantain, and when out whatever graze they do.

 

[ruanda]

Why are the newbies going off on an issue that has nothing to do with the question?

If anyone wants to start some debate on the importance of variety.. go ahead ------ on your own thread!



Nerd

Thank you, redfoot NERD!!!
You're very nice!
My first post here was welcomed well!...

(You if have forgoten, this is a public forum, I can do what ever I want, becuase I allways respect the rules!...)

---

Yet another rude posting, this is a public forum Terry anyone can post.

Thank you, stells!

(My first post, not "newbie" in tortoises of course, but some difficulties in the language... I'm portuguese and posting from Portugal!...)

 

[Tim/Robin]

Why are the newbies going off on an issue that has nothing to do with the question?

If anyone wants to start some debate on the importance of variety.. go ahead ------ on your own thread!

I'm still waiting to hear from [ or how about a link to ] anyone who has more than a year of experience.. feeding their star(s) cactus.

Keep smiling.. we're listening...

BTW.. my concern was sparked when reading the 'stats' on Rivenrock.com - http://rivenrock.com/nutrients.htm

Another example of "internet nonsense"??? Or was the 'site Itort posted.. one I have relied on also! Cactus is higher in carbs than dandelion. Do not all carbs turn to sugar?

Nerd

Mr Kilgore,

Why do you post questions to this forum, or any other, when you make it so obvious you know it all!! Can you really gain nothing from a "newbie"?

Tim

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Well.. let's see - I've been accused of being rude and 'knowing-it-all'. I suppose my Q? would be why the accusations?

First of all.. take anything I say as not a personal assault.. because it's not. I just "bottom-line" things all of the time.

Tim & Robin.. unfortunately there ARE those that think they know it all that advocate [ again unfortunately ] that Romaine lettuce IS a good green. Using this source.. http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/nutrientanalysis.htm .. it shows that Romaine is "upside-down" on the cahos. ratio. After speaking with another member here the only time he uses Romaine is when "weaning" a new addition OFF of lettuce and on to the greens with a much better 'ratio'. So.. romaine [ because of the cahos. ratio ] should not be used as a STAPLE green. Again unfortunately Romaine is advocated because it is easier to acquire.. is the other thing I can think of. [ and it is better than Iceburg? etc. ]

As far as variety.. I have to believe that when tortoises [ in the wild ] come upon a 'food source' they will stay in that spot until the source is depleted.. and then move on to the next 'source'. I doubt that they will move around from 'source-to-source' in a 24 hour time frame.. they stay where the groceries are. Again doubting that they create a 'mixed-variety' "salad".. which is why I advocate the feeding procedure I do on the caresheets.

Since there are always going to be 'exceptions and extremes' we have to use wisdom ( proper research= where does my species come from, etc. ) and knowledge ( years of experience.. in my circle that means "how many F2 have you hatched?" )!

Being rude.. I admit that I resent it when someone posts a Q? or statement that changes the original thought or purpose of the "New thread/topic"! That's not saying that the Q? or statement is not good or wrong.. it does mean that in many cases the original post is not 'covered'.. unless someone brings it back around. And that doesn't mean just my post either. All of this dialogue/explanation above is a perfect example!

So....... back to the original post - I see that I mistook the 'carbs-content' [ I'm confessing error ] between Prickly pear "fruit" and "pads". And I'm also seeing from those with "some" experience at feeding their Stars cactus that it creates "runny-poop" - and in one case the cactus is "mixed-in" with the salad that is being fed.. maybe twice a week at that.

So is runny-poop a sign of their system not designed to digest Prickly pear pads? [ which is really the original Q? ]

Does this clear-up anything?

Terry K

 

[Itort]

The statement of the digestive system not being "designed" for opuntia is true. In the wild the only tortoises that have it as a natural food are Gopherus genus, galapagos, Geochelone chilensis, and possibly redfoots and yellowfoots. That said the majority of (stars included) discussed on this forum have in the last 400 years had it become a part of their diet (this plant was one of first introduced from New to Old world). I ask you to consider the native status of say collard to a Mediterrean or African specie in the wild or dandelion to a New world specie prior to European settlement. We all feed foods not native to an area of origin. I beleive the runny poop is a symtem of the high moisture content of a cactus and nothing more. I guess I do have a question for any Desert tortoise keepers who are viewing this, is this a problem with DTs?

 

[Redfoot NERD]

The statement of the digestive system not being "designed" for opuntia is true. In the wild the only tortoises that have it as a natural food are Gopherus genus, galapagos, Geochelone chilensis, and possibly redfoots and yellowfoots. That said the majority of (stars included) discussed on this forum have in the last 400 years had it become a part of their diet (this plant was one of first introduced from New to Old world). I ask you to consider the native status of say collard to a Mediterrean or African specie in the wild or dandelion to a New world specie prior to European settlement. We all feed foods not native to an area of origin. I beleive the runny poop is a symtem of the high moisture content of a cactus and nothing more. I guess I do have a question for any Desert tortoise keepers who are viewing this, is this a problem with DTs?

Larry are not any of the "introduced" greens that are fed to our 'herb/omni' torts not greens that are compatible with their systems anyway? So at the risk of being "accused" of something(?).. although the "introduced" greens facts are no doubt true.. the torts don't [ if ever - in my 12+ years of raising and breeding tortoises ] have runny poop from the greens' high moisture content - it's always from too much fruit with a high sugar/carbs content. I can always tell when they've eaten too much fruit over a period of time.

Is feeding any food that does not contain the components that are required to maintain healthy growth of any tortoise.. the best thing for the tortoise? [ I'll just leave it at that and do what is best for mine ]

Larry I would encourage you to start a new thread about your DT Q?.. better odds of getting a response that way!

NERD

 

[Itort]

Of all the high value foods I have reviewed in Senneke's article/list, opuntia has the highest mosture content (this I attribute to habitat of this plant). I still maintain that it valuable component of the diet (I emphasis component). No foodstuff fills all requirements of a diet but only a as complete a range as we can provide.