Some Questions

[ClairDipson72]

A lot of advice I got from the vet differs from the general opinions on this forum. So I want to make a thread of the conflicting information just to make sure I read your opinions correctly.

1. He says that coils had an issue around 2008-2009, but not anymore and there's no reason to worry.

2. A lot of you suggest a third light/lamp for heat at night. He says that torts need to experience regular days and nights, not be kept hot all the time. A lot of you say to give the torts temps of 80* at night. He says it would be natural to have it go down to 70 at night or whatever the house temperature is even if it's in the 60s.

3. For those that use a regular 100 watt light bulb for heating instead of a bulb labeled as "basking" how does that not risk blindness? It would be brighter than the 18W coiled bulb I have for UVB. The vet suggested that if there's any worry we can just "burn in" our lightbulbs by leaving them on in a house lamp for a few days before we use them.

4. Substrates... coco fibre is not sold in any hardware store or garden shop anywhere here. He also says that sand is the worst thing to use because most torts try to eat it. So why is sand recommended here as one of the best things to use? He has nothing against coco fibre, but says that it's for plants usually.

5. Are horizontal lights any different from the regular bulbs in clam lamps? I didn't ask him about this.

6. He suggests vet checkups at least every 1-2 years Some of you have never gone. Are the signs of a sick tort obvious? Are "checkups" unnecessary? It would cost $100 per visit.

7. All of this conflicting info has me stressed to the point of not sleeping. So HELP PLEASE.

 

[Dosu]

Hello,
I'm not an expert in tortoises or anything (actually, I'm a very new user to the forums) but I may be able to answer some of your questions from what I have learnt.
1. Everyone says coiled bulbs are still dangerous for the tortoises health. Play it safe and avoid them.
2. Not sure, but I don't use heat at night. I usually let it drop to around 72-75 degrees fahrenheit and my greek tortoise is fine.
3. Don't know.
4. Everyone is saying to never use sand. What people are recommending here is playsand mixed with topsoil which I think is different.
5. I don't know.
6. Don't know. I'd assume a check up once in a while would be necessary just incase.
Good luck with your tortoise

 

[WithLisa]

Hi Clair!
What kind of tortoise are you talking about? Tropical species need other substrates and temperatures than (for example) European species.

 

[ClairDipson72]

Hi Clair!
What kind of tortoise are you talking about? Tropical species need other substrates and temperatures than (for example) European species.

Russian

Going to return the coiled bulb and heat bulb and get this today
http://www.petco.com/product/12129/...d-Mercury-Vapor-UVB-Lamp.aspx#description-tab

Also thinking of this for substrate
http://www.petco.com/product/104906...trate.aspx?CoreCat=RecentlyViewed-_-Product_3

 

[Tom]

I am SOOOOOOOO glad you came here and asked these questions. This happens all the time to so many people, and most of them are not nearly as open mined about it as you are. Before I answer your questions, here are some points to ponder:
1. Do you know how many semesters there are in vet school on the intricacies of tortoise husbandry? ZERO. So how does your vet know the things he/she is telling you? Do they know it from decades of keeping and raising many species in many different ways and learning from all those years of trial and error? That is how the experienced keepers here know their stuff.
2. Has your vet kept tortoises of the species in question the way they are telling you to keep them, and also the way we are telling you to keep them many times, and with many other species, and so they already know what each method will produce because of extensive first hand experience with each method? I think not… But we have.
3. Most vets have a dismal record with tortoises. Many tortoises die because of vet ignorance. I see it all the time in my daily life, and we see it here on the forum all the time too. There are some really good tortoise vets out there. We have a couple of them as members here on the forum. They know what they are doing because they are actual tortoise keepers and are passionate about keeping tortoises the same way other tortoise keepers are. They just have a lot of medical knowledge and experience in addition to actual tortoise experience. These guys are a gold mine of good info, and I wish there were more vets like them, but most vets are not. Most vets have a lot of vet school debt to pay off and they are not willing to turn down a paying customer just because they are ignorant about the species in question. THey simply go to the back, read out of a vet handbook or vet internet help site, and then come back into the room and proclaim like an expert that your tortoise needs a "vitamin injection…" Happens every day...
4. Invite your vet here to compare notes on these items and see what happens. They will be treated with respect, but they will be asked to back up their assertions with facts, pictures and evidence in the same way that I will back up my assertions.

Okay. Your questions:
1. Your vet is wrong. Dead wrong. So says every reptile vet I know. We see burned eye balls on this forum from new people that got sold a coil bulb from some pet store person that doesn't know a thing about tortoises all the time here. There was a problem back then. It was obvious. The manufacturers acknowledged this and muddied the waters with the statement your vet parroted to you. Its not true. Don't take my word for it. Spend a few hours searching around the forum on this topic and you will see it for your self. In addition to all of that, they are NOT effective UV sources anyway, so say my expensive UV meters.
2. This depends on species. Your vet is correct for temperate species like CA or AZ desert tortoises russians, hermanni, greeks or marginateds. Your vet is not correct for tropical species like sulcatas, leopards, red foots, or stars that come from areas with monsoon season and year round hot weather. My friend from Senegal reports that there are but TWO season in the parts of his country where sulcatas live: The seasons are referred to as "HOT and HOTTER".
3. Totally different things. The light spectrum that these lamps produce is the problem. The 100 watt incandescent bulb does not produce light from and damaging spectrum. The 18watt coil bulb does. Part of the problem is that there is not rich corporate entity that wants to put the money toward studying exactly what is wrong with these cfl bulbs. Us hobbyists see the results, but without a million dollar lab, all sorts of expensive testing equipments and knowledgable staff on payroll to do the testing, we have no way to tell anyone EXACTLY what the problem is. I've seen lots of theories proposed, but cannot say with any certainty what the problem is specifically. This all does not mean there is not a problem, it just means that we laymen cannot define the problem in a factual, scientific way. Even though I cannot explain in a scientific way why it hurts to look directly at the mid day sun, that doesn't mean I can't know that it hurts my eyes. Bottom line: cfl bulbs sometimes burn reptile eyes. I've seen it first hand many times. Incandescent bulbs don't. In 29 years of keeping a wide variety of reptile under incandescent bulbs, I have never had one single problem with it.
4a. Coco fiber is most certainly sold in garden centers, but not usually in big chain hardware stores. That is where I buy mine. Same with orchid bark. I just bought six 2.0 cubic foot bags two days ago and I have a big bag of bulk coco coir sitting still unused in my reptile room. Which substrate I recommend depends on species and size.
4b. NO ONE here recommends sand. A few people still claim to use a little bit as part of a mix and I constantly argue with them about it. Most of us recommend against any sand at all as it is an impaction risk and possible skin and eye irritant. I think you have our site confused with some other site. No sand here.Sand was often recommended in the past for tortoises, but we here have learned better.
5. Long horizontal tube type florescent UB bulbs have proven safe to use over the years, but some types are ineffective and other types are VERY effective. You must know how to use the specific type that you have in your individual situation. We are happy to help with this.
6. Check ups are a matter of personal opinion and vary with each individual situation. Wild non-domesticated animals generally don't need regular vet visits, but a case could be made that if you have a good vet that knows what they are doing, some problems could be detected and remedied early. Go if you want to, don't go if you don't want to. If my animal is healthy and all is good, I see no reason to go. Another point is that regular visits keep you and your chosen vet on good, familiar terms. If ever there was a problem, your vet would already know you and your tortoise and this could help vs. cold calling on a vet the has never seen you or your tortoise. This is an individual choice.
7. Hope this all helps. Rest easy now.

Do an intro thread and tell us who you are, where you are and what species of tortoise you have. This allow the experienced members here to give better help that is more specific to your individual situation.

Welcome to the Tortoise Forum.

 

[ClairDipson72]

I am SOOOOOOOO glad you came here and asked these questions. This happens all the time to so many people, and most of them are not nearly as open mined about it as you are. Before I answer your questions, here are some points to ponder:
1. Do you know how many semesters there are in vet school on the intricacies of tortoise husbandry? ZERO. So how does your vet know the things he/she is telling you? Do they know it from decades of keeping and raising many species in many different ways and learning from all those years of trial and error? That is how the experienced keepers here know their stuff.
2. Has your vet kept tortoises of the species in question the way they are telling you to keep them, and also the way we are telling you to keep them many times, and with many other species, and so they already know what each method will produce because of extensive first hand experience with each method? I think not… But we have.
3. Most vets have a dismal record with tortoises. Many tortoises die because of vet ignorance. I see it all the time in my daily life, and we see it here on the forum all the time too. There are some really good tortoise vets out there. We have a couple of them as members here on the forum. They know what they are doing because they are actual tortoise keepers and are passionate about keeping tortoises the same way other tortoise keepers are. They just have a lot of medical knowledge and experience in addition to actual tortoise experience. These guys are a gold mine of good info, and I wish there were more vets like them, but most vets are not. Most vets have a lot of vet school debt to pay off and they are not willing to turn down a paying customer just because they are ignorant about the species in question. THey simply go to the back, read out of a vet handbook or vet internet help site, and then come back into the room and proclaim like an expert that your tortoise needs a "vitamin injection…" Happens every day...
4. Invite your vet here to compare notes on these items and see what happens. They will be treated with respect, but they will be asked to back up their assertions with facts, pictures and evidence in the same way that I will back up my assertions.

Okay. Your questions:
1. Your vet is wrong. Dead wrong. So says every reptile vet I know. We see burned eye balls on this forum from new people that got sold a coil bulb from some pet store person that doesn't know a thing about tortoises all the time here. There was a problem back then. It was obvious. The manufacturers acknowledged this and muddied the waters with the statement your vet parroted to you. Its not true. Don't take my word for it. Spend a few hours searching around the forum on this topic and you will see it for your self. In addition to all of that, they are NOT effective UV sources anyway, so say my expensive UV meters.
2. This depends on species. Your vet is correct for temperate species like CA or AZ desert tortoises russians, hermanni, greeks or marginateds. Your vet is not correct for tropical species like sulcatas, leopards, red foots, or stars that come from areas with monsoon season and year round hot weather. My friend from Senegal reports that there are but TWO season in the parts of his country where sulcatas live: The seasons are referred to as "HOT and HOTTER".
3. Totally different things. The light spectrum that these lamps produce is the problem. The 100 watt incandescent bulb does not produce light from and damaging spectrum. The 18watt coil bulb does. Part of the problem is that there is not rich corporate entity that wants to put the money toward studying exactly what is wrong with these cfl bulbs. Us hobbyists see the results, but without a million dollar lab, all sorts of expensive testing equipments and knowledgable staff on payroll to do the testing, we have no way to tell anyone EXACTLY what the problem is. I've seen lots of theories proposed, but cannot say with any certainty what the problem is specifically. This all does not mean there is not a problem, it just means that we laymen cannot define the problem in a factual, scientific way. Even though I cannot explain in a scientific way why it hurts to look directly at the mid day sun, that doesn't mean I can't know that it hurts my eyes. Bottom line: cfl bulbs sometimes burn reptile eyes. I've seen it first hand many times. Incandescent bulbs don't. In 29 years of keeping a wide variety of reptile under incandescent bulbs, I have never had one single problem with it.
4a. Coco fiber is most certainly sold in garden centers, but not usually in big chain hardware stores. That is where I buy mine. Same with orchid bark. I just bought six 2.0 cubic foot bags two days ago and I have a big bag of bulk coco coir sitting still unused in my reptile room. Which substrate I recommend depends on species and size.
4b. NO ONE here recommends sand. A few people still claim to use a little bit as part of a mix and I constantly argue with them about it. Most of us recommend against any sand at all as it is an impaction risk and possible skin and eye irritant. I think you have our site confused with some other site. No sand here.Sand was often recommended in the past for tortoises, but we here have learned better.
5. Long horizontal tube type florescent UB bulbs have proven safe to use over the years, but some types are ineffective and other types are VERY effective. You must know how to use the specific type that you have in your individual situation. We are happy to help with this.
6. Check ups are a matter of personal opinion and vary with each individual situation. Wild non-domesticated animals generally don't need regular vet visits, but a case could be made that if you have a good vet that knows what they are doing, some problems could be detected and remedied early. Go if you want to, don't go if you don't want to. If my animal is healthy and all is good, I see no reason to go. Another point is that regular visits keep you and your chosen vet on good, familiar terms. If ever there was a problem, your vet would already know you and your tortoise and this could help vs. cold calling on a vet the has never seen you or your tortoise. This is an individual choice.
7. Hope this all helps. Rest easy now.

Do an intro thread and tell us who you are, where you are and what species of tortoise you have. This allow the experienced members here to give better help that is more specific to your individual situation.

Welcome to the Tortoise Forum.

You are an angel.

He is a Russian.

Please tell me if the links I posted above are ok for him. I dont care about pet store markups right now. I just need to get some better stuff asap and worry about finding a better deal later.

The tortoise is in a small-ish enclosure now about 27 x 20. He's only 2 inches big. I'll upgrade when necessary.

I think I confused play sand with other sand.

If I get the items I posted, I do not need tube bulbs, right? Will be be fine on the one mercury bulb?

 

[Yvonne G]

There is no confusion...sand, whether it be playsand, calci-sand or beach sand, is no good in tortoise habitats. It can cause eye irritation, skin irritation and impaction.

Since your Russian tortoise is still a baby, there really shouldn't be a very big drop in temperature from day to night. Certainly not below 75F degrees for night time.

The Mercury Vapor Bulb is fine. That's what I use.

 

[ClairDipson72]

There is no confusion...sand, whether it be playsand, calci-sand or beach sand, is no good in tortoise habitats. It can cause eye irritation, skin irritation and impaction.

Since your Russian tortoise is still a baby, there really shouldn't be a very big drop in temperature from day to night. Certainly not below 75F degrees for night time.

The Mercury Vapor Bulb is fine. That's what I use.

And is the eco earth stuff I picked fine? I'm not gonna try to mix it myself the first time. It's premade.

 

[Yvonne G]

Yes. Quite a few of our members use eco earth (coco coir). It comes in a compressed brick and you hydrate it to get it useable. I prefer orchid bark. Never did like the coco coir. It gets all over everything. But so many of our members swear by it.

If you can find this it might be more for your money:

 

[Tom]

You are an angel.

He is a Russian.

Please tell me if the links I posted above are ok for him. I dont care about pet store markups right now. I just need to get some better stuff asap and worry about finding a better deal later.

The tortoise is in a small-ish enclosure now about 27 x 20. He's only 2 inches big. I'll upgrade when necessary.

I think I confused play sand with other sand.

If I get the items I posted, I do not need tube bulbs, right? Will be be fine on the one mercury bulb?

I've been called many things, but never an angel. Thank you.

The Powersun is good and the coco coir is actually my preferred substrate for baby russians. I like to move them onto orchid bark, like what Yvonne mentioned, when they get bigger.

Yvonnes said it best. No sand of any kind for tortoise substrate in my opinion.

You can get by with your Powersun on a timer all by itself, but I prefer to use a florescent tube to brighten up the whole enclosure during the day. This is optional though and you can decide later.

Here is how I like to care for baby russian tortoises and another thread with some tips:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

Please feel free to ask lots of questions and for clarification on any of this info. Chances are good that someone else reading has the same question.

 

[ClairDipson72]

So I got the new bulb and now the basking area is going up to 100 degrees F!! Is this way too hot? Rememeber, it's a smaller enclosure. The cool side of the tank is still 71* F

 

[ClairDipson72]

Another problem. The bulb literally just burned out. I bought it in store and had it in a 160W fixture for a few hours.

 

[Tom]

So I got the new bulb and now the basking area is going up to 100 degrees F!! Is this way too hot? Rememeber, it's a smaller enclosure. The cool side of the tank is still 71* F

100 is just about right for directly under the basking bulb. If if gets hotter you can raise it up a few inches. 71 for the cool side is okay as long as he can warm up on the warm side. Covering some of the top will also help hold in some heat.

 

[Tom]

Another problem. The bulb literally just burned out. I bought it in store and had it in a 160W fixture for a few hours.

Two things:
1. The MVBs have a built in safety feature. If they over heat, or if you turn it off and then right back on, they will shut down for a few minutes until things cool off a bit, before turning back on.
2. Because they run hot, you must run them in the correct fixture. Most pet store fixtures are too small. This is what I was talking about in the "Beginner Mistakes" thread when I said stop shopping for tortoise supplies at the pet shop. Go to Home Depot and get one of their 11" aluminum domed hoods with the ceramic base and the long heavy duty cord. This will allow your MVB to run without over heating and it will spread the basking area out a bit too, which is good.

Like this one, but take off the metal wire guard thingies:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Designers-Edge-10-1-2-in-Brooder-Lamp-with-Hang-Hook-0165/204667675

 

[ClairDipson72]

100 is just about right for directly under the basking bulb. If if gets hotter you can raise it up a few inches. 71 for the cool side is okay as long as he can warm up on the warm side. Covering some of the top will also help hold in some heat.

Really? I thought 90 was the max. If 100 is ok, then all is well.

Two things:
1. The MVBs have a built in safety feature. If they over heat, or if you turn it off and then right back on, they will shut down for a few minutes until things cool off a bit, before turning back on.
2. Because they run hot, you must run them in the correct fixture. Most pet store fixtures are too small. This is what I was talking about in the "Beginner Mistakes" thread when I said stop shopping for tortoise supplies at the pet shop. Go to Home Depot and get one of their 11" aluminum domed hoods with the ceramic base and the long heavy duty cord. This will allow your MVB to run without over heating and it will spread the basking area out a bit too, which is good.

Like this one, but take off the metal wire guard thingies:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Designers-Edge-10-1-2-in-Brooder-Lamp-with-Hang-Hook-0165/204667675

Did not know about the safety. Bulb went back on LOL

It's in a special fixture. Fluker's sun dome. 160 watt max. So the 100 W mvb should be fine in a 160 max fixture, correct?

Here's what it is. (It's not actually cut open)

http://www.petco.com/product/125977/Flukers-Sun-Dome-Reptile-Lamp.aspx

 

[Tom]

Really? I thought 90 was the max. If 100 is ok, then all is well.


Did not know about the safety. Bulb went back on LOL

It's in a special fixture. Fluker's sun dome. 160 watt max. So the 100 W mvb should be fine in a 160 max fixture, correct?

Here's what it is. (It's not actually cut open)

http://www.petco.com/product/125977/Flukers-Sun-Dome-Reptile-Lamp.aspx

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but no. That one is definitely not okay for use with a Mercury Vapor Bulb. The deep domes hold in too much heat and they cause the problem you are having. It is very likely to happen with a 100 watt MVB too.

 

[leigti]

You can also get them at the front of the feed stores or farm supply stores, they're used for Bruder boxes for chickens. Depending on the time of year I've got them for six to $10

 

[Yvonne G]

Another problem. The bulb literally just burned out. I bought it in store and had it in a 160W fixture for a few hours.

the mercury vapor bulbs are self ballasted. For some reason (unknown to me) they sometimes turn themselves off just as they start to warm up. Leave it on and leave it alone. It should come back on again once it cools down.

Actually that Flukers Dome fixture isn't the right thing for a Mercury Vapor Bulb. The bell isn't wide enough. You don't want a deep dome, you want a wide dome. You can compare Leigti's picture with yours and you can see the difference.

 

[bigballofyarn]

the mercury vapor bulbs are self ballasted. For some reason (unknown to me) they sometimes turn themselves off just as they start to warm up. Leave it on and leave it alone. It should come back on again once it cools down.

Actually that Flukers Dome fixture isn't the right thing for a Mercury Vapor Bulb. The bell isn't wide enough. You don't want a deep dome, you want a wide dome. You can compare Leigti's picture with yours and you can see the difference.

From the picture of the one at Home Depot only, it looks like the bulb would extend beyond the fixture. Is that not the case?

What impact does the dome lamp have on the bulb? Just the hotter basking temp?

 

[Lyn W]

From the picture of the one at Home Depot only, it looks like the bulb would extend beyond the fixture. Is that not the case?

What impact does the dome lamp have on the bulb? Just the hotter basking temp?

I have read some where here that the deep domes cause the bulbs to over heat and burn out.
Possibly because they trap heat whereas with a wide dome I assume the air cools it a little.
As heat rises a lot of heat could be lost without a dome. My wide domes are reflectors so the light and heat are directed downwards.