Some big morality issues for my new tortoises

[frenchsuite]

So, I got two male Russian tortoises from PetSmart a few days ago, and both of them look happy and healthy so far. I separated them into different enclosure because I noticed that they did not get along in the same enclosure when they were in PetSmart.

Now I noticed something that is wrong, and I am wondering if we could teach our tortoises to behave right.

The first thing is that both of my tortoises like to bring a lot of dirt into the water bowl I provided, and one of them even pooped in the water bowl (why ????). Doesn't he know that he should not poop in the pool??? Is there a way to teach him to behave right? My neighbor's dog knows where to poop and where to not poop.

Another thing is that I would like to find a companion for one of the tortoises who is super active, and I noticed that people on internet say that the best male-female ratio is 1:3 to 1:5 so the male will not constantly harass the same female. I briefly talked to my wife about this, and my wife says that's the life of a king and she seems to not like it. Well, I know tortoises are not human, but I am wondering if there is a way to teach tortoise not be polygamous. Like to train them to love only one and get along with only one female tortoise?

I appreciate any help.

 

[Tom]

Is this a joke?

 

[frenchsuite]

Is this a joke?

No.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

The short answer is - no, you can't reprogram them. The easiest things to do:
1. Soak them in the mornings so they go in the soaking tub. They anatomically different from mammals and simply have no circular muscles to close "the exit". They have cloaka, water gets there and "softens" the masses, that's why they poop in the water.
2. You can't imprint any moral principles such as monogamy in them. Even humans raised outside the society ("Mowgly" kids) behave very different and it can't be fixed as brain has formed. Tortoises have zero to none frontal brain lobes which are responsible for moral and control. Keep them separate and you and them will be happy.

 

[frenchsuite]

The short answer is - no, you can't reprogram them. The easiest things to do:
1. Soak them in the mornings so they go in the soaking tub. They anatomically different from mammals and simply have no circular muscles to close "the exit". They have cloaka, water gets there and "softens" the masses, that's why they poop in the water.
2. You can't imprint any moral principles such as monogamy in them. Even humans raised outside the society ("Mowgly" kids) behave very different and it can't be fixed as brain has formed. Tortoises have zero to none frontal brain lobes which are responsible for moral and control. Keep them separate and you and them will be happy.

Thank you. Ok. I soak them at the night before they go to bed. I will soak them in the morning.

Regarding companionship, the males are now separated. You think that male staying alone is better than finding a female for him, is that correct?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Thank you. Ok. I soak them at the night before they go to bed. I will soak them in the morning.

Regarding companionship, the males are now separated. You think that male staying alone is better than finding a female for him, is that correct?

Absolutely. They are solitary animals and do fine on their own. Only some species are *tolerable* (not friendly!) to the presence of other tortoises. Russian tortoises and Testudos in general aren't of them.

 

[Maggie3fan]

Thank you. Ok. I soak them at the night before they go to bed. I will soak them in the morning.

Regarding companionship, the males are now separated. You think that male staying alone is better than finding a female for him, is that correct?

My family has been involved in reptiles for maybe 40 years, me not so much...but I can tell you that a tortoise wants and likes being alone...that way they don't have to fight with another tort for the best sleeping spot, or enuf of the food...he wants the best basking spot....seriously....tortoises want to be alone...this is my sweet Layla and she's given me her opinion of her empty food dish with a perfect Redfoot turd....lol... you need to learn tortoises are wild animals no matter how they are kept...they have NO manners

 

[wellington]

Seriously! No, you can not teach them like a dog
Second, pooping in the water is normal, most will do it in their soak and it keeps the enclosure cleaner. Have two water bowls, one for the soak and a smaller one they can't get into to just drink from
No, they can not have a single friend and do not want a friend. Tortoises are happy being all by themselves and only come across other tortoises to mate or fight
Substrate if inside should not be dirt but orchid bark. Outside should be grass, weeds, etc.

 

[frenchsuite]

My family has been involved in reptiles for maybe 40 years, me not so much...but I can tell you that a tortoise wants and likes being alone...that way they don't have to fight with another tort for the best sleeping spot, or enuf of the food...he wants the best basking spot....seriously....tortoises want to be alone...this is my sweet Layla and she's given me her opinion of her empty food dish with a perfect Redfoot turd....lol... you need to learn tortoises are wild animals no matter how they are kept...they have NO mannersView attachment 370209

Haha! Ok! Now I get it! WOW they even pooped in their food can.
BTW I like the hide you created for her. The size is perfect, and she must like the privacy it offers.

 

[frenchsuite]

Seriously! No, you can not teach them like a dog
Second, pooping in the water is normal, most will do it in their soak and it keeps the enclosure cleaner. Have two water bowls, one for the soak and a smaller one they can't get into to just drink from
No, they can not have a single friend and do not want a friend. Tortoises are happy being all by themselves and only come across other tortoises to mate or fight
Substrate if inside should not be dirt but orchid bark. Outside should be grass, weeds, etc.

I am using the coco fiber for them for now (looks like "Dirt"). Is that ok?

 

[wellington]

I am using the coco fiber for them for now (looks like "Dirt"). Is that ok?

Yes, the coir is fine. If you pack it down and have it damp, it will be less messy. You can also put a layer of orchid or fir bark on top of the coir.

 

[Maggie3fan]

I am using the coco fiber for them for now (looks like "Dirt"). Is that ok?

To me, it's too messy, but some think it's acceptable...the habitat needs to be closed off....Your tort doesn't need bunches of humidity like Layla does, but to help stop pyramiding your tort should be in a closed chamber while it's growing...here is Layla's greenhouse just to give you ideas

 

[Tom]

I am using the coco fiber for them for now (looks like "Dirt"). Is that ok?

Coco fiber is safe, but too messy for adult Russians. Hand pack it firmly to reduce the mess. I prefer orchid bark for adult Testudo.

Your original questions have given me pause. Where does a person go to learn the basics of tortoise biology and behavior? Where did I learn what I know about tortoises? We have care guides here that explain how to meet their physical needs, but I can't think of a guide that explains their behavior, psychology, and their social lives. There are many books written on tortoises in the wild, but most of them are so full of incorrect assumptions and bad care info, that there isn't one of them worth recommending.

There is a lot of knowledge here on this forum. Please keep asking questions and we will share what we know. Alex answered this round very well. Look up the word anthropomorphism. This will help you and your wife understand why animal and human behavior and thought is different, and why not to relate animal behavior and psychology to human behavior and psychology.

 

[frenchsuite]

Coco fiber is safe, but too messy for adult Russians. Hand pack it firmly to reduce the mess. I prefer orchid bark for adult Testudo.

Your original questions have given me pause. Where does a person go to learn the basics of tortoise biology and behavior? Where did I learn what I know about tortoises? We have care guides here that explain how to meet their physical needs, but I can't think of a guide that explains their behavior, psychology, and their social lives. There are many books written on tortoises in the wild, but most of them are so full of incorrect assumptions and bad care info, that there isn't one of them worth recommending.

There is a lot of knowledge here on this forum. Please keep asking questions and we will share what we know. Alex answered this round very well. Look up the word anthropomorphism. This will help you and your wife understand why animal and human behavior and thought is different, and why not to relate animal behavior and psychology to human behavior and psychology.

Thank you. I just ordered two bags of orchid bark.

I think I will not give my male tortoises any wife, at least for now. I worries that they will not love their one wife and my enclosure size cannot allow a few wives now for one male.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Thank you. I just ordered two bags of orchid bark.

I think I will not give my male tortoises any wife, at least for now. I worries that they will not love their one wife and my enclosure size cannot allow a few wives now for one male.

Suprisingly, to us, humans, he will be happy without a wife.
We have seen some serious injuries in pairs of tortoises, where one was a male and the second was a female. These injuries were not related to mating behaviour - it was plain "get out" aggression.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Yeah, I found the same 2 years ago when I started doing research. There just isn't as much info on tortoise behavior compared to a lot of other pets. This forum will help you understand better how tortoises brain works and how they behave. You should always remember that they are not mammals and not social animals like us and that is why they think differently and will always be wild.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Thank you. I just ordered two bags of orchid bark.

I think I will not give my male tortoises any wife, at least for now. I worries that they will not love their one wife and my enclosure size cannot allow a few wives now for one male.

It will probably be for the best. Either get multiple females or none at all. In most cases tortoises are best kept solitary.

 

[Tom]

Thank you. I just ordered two bags of orchid bark.

I think I will not give my male tortoises any wife, at least for now. I worries that they will not love their one wife and my enclosure size cannot allow a few wives now for one male.

The concept of "wife" is a human construct. Tortoises do not "love" each other. Your species in particular is highly aggressive, territorial and prone to fighting. This is true of both the males and the larger females. You will be a better tortoise keeper if you learn more about reptile and animal behavior.

It would also be highly beneficial if you built a couple of large outdoor enclosures for your tortoises to use when the weather is nice. Indoors they need at least 4x8 feet, and outdoors should be even larger.

Petsmart gives out the old wrong tortoise care info and they tend to sell enclosures that are WAY too small and all the wrong heating and lighting. Please take a few minutes to read through this thread for the correct care info:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

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[SinLA]

If you feed them using this, it will help keep them from pooping in their food. BUT you need to have a big enough space that this doesn't eat into necessary floorspace. It comes in two sizes, I recommend the small one.

As others have noted they are solitary and do not need a "friend" of any kind, and should not be kept in pairs, one will eventually bully the other to death

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07R4WF754/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

Can you share pictures of your setup, we can help advise you.

This is what it looks like in mine:

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[ZEROPILOT]

Its not unusual for new keepers to not initially grasp the concept of thinking like a tortoise.
But once you do, you'll see things differently.
Tortoises are solitary. And they bully intruders. Sometimes one male with at least 3 females can work. Because it spreads out the bullying. Of course you need a lot of space to even attempt that.
Russian tortoise males are some of the most aggressive fighters in the tortoise world. And I'd say that pound for pound, they may be the most aggressive. With two males often fighting until bloody and badly injured when forced to live near one another.
Russian tortoises are very strong. They are active climbers and are fairly intelligent. But you won't be able to train out any instinctual behavior.
It's unfortunate that you bought two. Because no matter what sex they are, you've got your hands full.

Welcome to the forum from South Florida!