Im trying to dial in my UVB levels under Arcadia 12% t5 HO. My substrate is oyster shell and is only 1 inch deep(Testudo Kleinmanni). Since the solarmeter 6.5r is 4 inches tall, I cant sink it down far enough into the substrate to give me a reading at the substrate level. I tried to take a measurement outside of the enclosed vivarium by pulling out the fixture and measuring the same distance. However, the inside of the enclosure is all white. Especially compared to my wood floors. Does this effect the UVI recorded level. How do you most accurately measure UVI with this meter if you cant sink it 4 inches down into the substrate?
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Your levels are not that critical. Anything from 1-6 UVI will work. If you move the substrate and put the bottom of the meter on the bottom of the enclosure, and then measure, you'll only be a couple inches different than the top of the tortoise. That is close enough.
I predict with oyster shell as a substrate and an HO tube in a dry enclosure, your tortoise will grow slowly and pyramid. I haven't done it myself yet, but all indications tell me that Egyptians are no different than other Testudo when it comes to raising them in overly dry desiccating conditions. In the wild, these desert tortoises would seek out humid microclimates as babies to hide from predators and also to maintain hydration.
TeamZissou
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I had the same idea after reading Ricarda Schramm's 2019 book on keeping Egyptians. She's in Germany, and it seems like all the CB Europeans Egyptians that I see are a lot smoother than what you see in the US on forums, Fauna, and other places. Her tortoises are smoother despite the use of MVBs, regular (UVA) fluorescent tubes, and UVB set to the "ideal" UVI of 3-4. She also uses a closed chamber whereas most of the setups for Egyptians in the US are open topped tables.
The other main difference is substrate. Rather than using oyster shell, they use a mix of building sand and loam, which has a small amount of clay in it and supposedly retains moisture a bit better than straight sand. It also provides more digging opportunities compared to the oyster shell, so they get more wet/humidity directly on the shell.
She also runs a fogger to raise humidity into the 75% range. I've read that you're not pro-fogger and have said that it's not the same as regular humidity, but it seems to work for her. On that note, how is it fundamentally different compared to raising the humidity with water dishes etc? The only thing I can think of is that the water particles from a fogger are a bit larger, so we can see them.
Anyway, my primary strategy when I get some Egyptians in the spring is to run a closed chamber with LED lights for ambient light, 1 hour of UVB at a lower UVI, and obviously regular flood basking bulbs; really it's fairly standard stuff, but not for Egyptians in the US. I think there is something to the sand + loam + fogger option as well. It seems like it has worked for the European Egyptian keepers.
With the exception of the substrate, this was essentially the experiment I was planning on running for 2020. Covid hit and I didn't work for 6 months and that changed my plans.
I would never use sand or soil (loam), and I won't be running a humidifier, but more moderate humidity in a closed chamber, with humid hides and humid microclimates available, was my plan. One of the breeders I was going to buy from uses a fogger in the mornings to simulate the coastal fog that blows in to those wild areas in the mornings and then burns off. He was keeping them on a more damp substrate and his animals are healthy and some of the smoothest I've seen.
TeamZissou
Well-Known Member
Excellent. It will be good to see how everything works out. There's definitely a perception that Egyptians can't be kept on very damp substrate, but your friend's method seems indicate that it does work. Have you seen a lot of negatives associated with a humidifier, such as more frequent URI or something with other species?
I guess Egyptians also grow faster and develop bone more quickly compared to other Testudo species, so the humid climate might be more critical right from the start.
That is a bummer about not working for six months. I can definitely see getting a load of Egyptians as a non-essential cost. Maybe if enough people start breeding Egyptians, the price will come down. It doesn't look like the price has decreased at all, especially in the last 5 years based on old listings on faunaclassifieds.
Beware of using a fogger in an enclosed vivarium with baby egyptians. This is my experience only talking. I dont know about anyone else. My babies had bubbles coming out their noses after two weeks. I kept terra cotta pots turned upside down with the terra cotta saucer on top filled with water as humid hide, ran a fogger set to 60% humidity and did daily soaks for 10 min. That caused the bubbles. I took off the fogger and stopped the humid hides and kept the daily soaks going while skipping a day here and there. Everything went back to normal. In my experience, the breathing in of water vapor in the air that comes from a fogger builds up in their lungs. Maybe this doesnt happen on a tort table. Just letting you know what happened to me. Maybe there was something else i was doing wrong but i dont think so. My only thought was that at night the enclosure temp would dip to 73-75 degrees. I dont have as much experience as you guys. But, i want to share my story. I am tempted now that they are 30 months old to try it again and see if the results would be different. So, ive been running no humidity with daily-ish soaks since the nose bubbles started.
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This is EXCELLENT info and insight. Thank you for sharing your experience.
I like coco coir for baby Testudo, and fine grade o bark for adults.
I believe my friend has his in open topped enclosures, and that may be why he has not had respiratory issues using the fogger. Myself, I prefer to just not use foggers.
TeamZissou
Well-Known Member
I wonder if this is purely a UV issue like what @Sterant is seeing with his Chersina.
I think that foggers are dangerous if used in an enclosed chamber for kleinmanni. Could it be that the oyster shell was absorbing the water and making the fogger work extra? And in turn, creating alot of water droplets from the fogger which kleinmanni hate? What substrate is he using on the tort table, Tom?
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@TeamZissou I have never worked with Egyptians but this sounds close to how I would try to keep them and I want to see how it turns out. Like Tom, I am not really keen on the oyster shell substrate. The breeders promoting this have clearly perfected husbandry for the breeding adults, but not necessarily hatchlings, which commonly end up pyramiding.
With regards to the MVB’s, I have been testing MVB versus T8 this year and saw no difference, even with a 70W MVB at 8” distance from hatchlings. This was South African leopards. But, I am seeing differences between species in that 90-100% humidity works for leopards and redfoots, mostly works (not perfect) for platynota, but no bueno for Chacos (they still pyramid). I have some hunches as to why but need more hatchlings to test it all.
With regards to the MVB’s, I have been testing MVB versus T8 this year and saw no difference, even with a 70W MVB at 8” distance from hatchlings. This was South African leopards. But, I am seeing differences between species in that 90-100% humidity works for leopards and redfoots, mostly works (not perfect) for platynota, but no bueno for Chacos (they still pyramid). I have some hunches as to why but need more hatchlings to test it all.
@Tom - is this the fine size? there are 4 diff sizes here. Is there a cheaper way to get he quality fine stuff that you reccommend? Seems pricey.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TLYHGZH/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TLYHGZH/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20
That is made from a different species of tree than what we get here. I don't know if New Zealand pine, Pinus radiata, is safe or not.
Quarter inch is the correct size.
I don't think they are on tables. The pics I saw were more in ground looking, but I haven't seen them in person. He's using a coco peat and sand mixture.
ReptiBark sold at the pet store is perfect. Its clean and its the right size, but its relatively expensive to buy that way.
all the reptibark pics look way bigger than 1/4 inch tho. it must be deceiving in the pics i guess.
This is the best i could find shipped. youre right very expensive : https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MRB6F9Q/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20
But this product is sterilized and heated so it might be worth it
