Smooth Leopard Raised On Old Methods

[ianedward1]

So I have been watching this forum for many months now since I have had my Leopard Tortoise. One of the major things to be seen now is that humidity is required for a smooth tort. Now I don't disagree with this because I have no evidence to do so. I just simply wanted to state of a case that I knew of where a Leopard was raised through the older methods and is as smooth as a wild Desert Tortosie! This particular tort was over 20 years old and belonged to my professor. He claims that he raised it on alfalfa pellets, kept a balanced diet, and (like all his torts) gave it free range outside during the warms months (I live in south Georgia so we definitely do have high humidity). Some may be wondering where this is going. Well my main basis of the post is, maybe some methods aren't completely obsolete. It may even be beneficial to have a dry and wet type season (if possible) like many areas in Africa experience. I know there is still a lot to learn about husbandry and I currently don't have the time or money to do it myself but I welcome anyone to look into it for the betterment of the care of our loved animals.

 

[wellington]

Some have said that diet could play a role in the pyramiding along with dry conditions. However, as you have stated yourself, high humidity in Georgia. If you look up on the Internet, adult tortoises, you will see where the majority of them are pyramided. The ones that aren't are usually from of wild torts. Why go backwards, when so many of the members have pyramided tortoises from back in the raise them dry and dehydrated days. We now know that tortoises do need water and raising them in humidity grows a smooth tortoise. I think to do something like that could be detrimental to newbies looking for the correct way to raise a smooth healthy tortoise. Just my opinion.

 

[ianedward1]

I just feel like many may have the same issues that I have with the winter storage of their torts in that we worry so much about humidity of these enclosures. What I am getting at is that maybe a dry/wet change like what is natural could be beneficial and easy to repeat in areas such as mine. I have no way of testing this and DO NOT CONDONE NEWBIES TAKING IT UPON THEMSELVES!!!! I am simply stating a case in which I have seen a very healthy Leopard raised

 

[DesertGrandma]

The truth is that we don't have all the answers yet, so we express our opinions and questions and experiences and hope to learn from each other. you may have a valid point. I remember some leo keepers on the forum awhile back were experimenting with different types of lighting and trying to mimic the changes with the seasons to see if that could be improved upon. Don't remember any results being posted though. Still lots of unknowns.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

I hear you.

I have seen some evidence here on this forum of both sulcatas and leopards being raised in the more humid states (like GA although FL more comes to mind) and they have smoother carapaces despite dry or less humid indoor conditions.

Also, I am thinking of a specific sully that wasn't raised with enclosure humidity at all in TX but was given weekly vitashell in addition to great feeding and care. He is one of the most complimented and smooth adults we see pictures of.

But, I choose to raise my leo with a humid indoor enclosure in addition to the natural sunlight often, great diet and care because its fairly easy to do so and I feel more confident that I'll see the results I want.

If I lived in FL and my lil guy was going to spend lots of time outside I probably wouldn't maintain the same humid indoor enclosure I do here... but that is just an assumption from my current perspective.

 

[ianedward1]

I think I may know who you are talking about with the vitashell. I think that maybe that vitashell has provided an unnatural method to the higher humidity by holding water within the shell. I have also heard there may be problems with holding bacteria as well. I would rather use natural humidity than a so called "conditioner"

 

[Levi the Leopard]

I think I may know who you are talking about with the vitashell. I think that maybe that vitashell has provided an unnatural method to the higher humidity by holding water within the shell. I have also heard there may be problems with holding bacteria as well. I would rather use natural humidity than a so called "conditioner"

Please, so we don't revisit a vitashell debate..

My purpose in addressing said sulcata was to say that I too, believe that some torts have been raised smooth without the 80%humidity indoor enclosure set up that I currently use along with many others. But, I see results of many more that are raised smooth with those humid conditions. I like those odds better.

 

[wellington]

I think I understand what you mean. Like a dry season and a wet/humid season, correct? The only problem I see with that is the many hatchlings that are kept dry. Then are sold and shortly after sold they begin to pyramid. I own a leopard like this. Was hatched out dry. I got him, raised dry, then found TFO and Tom. Now this may be because he was started out dry. Where if he was started out humid and then dry, he may have not pyramided, according to what I think you are suggesting. Now, because we don't know how much humidity is really needed, or how long it is really needed for, and i am getting this from what i have read Tom say before, not any of my experiments, I guess your theory could possibly work. I just don't know if anyone really wants to risk the challenge and get pyramided torts. That's kinda like a step backwards. Also, according to Tom and if I am remembering correctly. He only does the high humidity until his torts are a year or two or 8 inches. He does this in closed chambers, pretty simple. Then they are put outside 24/7 So, basically, while torts are still small enough to house inside. I believe most experienced members feel the pyramiding is determined from hatching to about a year? Then around one or two years what is going to be is already done.

 

[ianedward1]

It would be so much better if pyramiding could be reversed and we didn't have to worry about all the health problems attached with such studies :/. I know that the smoothest Sulcata that I have ever seen (also owned by my professor) was a actually a rescue from a very humid environment. It was found on a Georgia Barrier Island and had been living there for possibly over 3 years. Being a barrier island, the humidity would have been constantly high and the temperature range would be 100+ in the summer to 30's in the winter. Also, an apparently very accessible and efficient diet can be determined by simply studying the native Georgia grasses

 

[Tom]

Plain and simple, if a leopard or sulcata is growing while dry and dehydrated, it will pyramid. Raising them in areas with high humidity and rainfall like Georgia or FL, pretty much keeps them humid and hydrated. Stick one outside here in the CA desert or in Phoenix and watch what happens. I can show you example after example of this. My own adults would be example number one.

 

[Neal]

I have raised several smooth tortoises (leopards, sulcatas, and stars) without maintaining high humidity 24/7. However, they were not raised in the old school method as you described. They were not raised on alfalfa pellets or deprived of hydration.

My opinion on the matter is that the internal hydration (the tortoise drinking) is what influences pyramiding, more so than environmental. That's not to say that I recommend a tortoise be kept bone dry all the time. I believe there should be some amount of moisture on the tortoises carapace, but how much and how frequently would be too difficult for one such as myself to determine. So for now I say keep them in a habitat with some elevated humidity to err on the side of caution....I'm still playing around with some theories including the high humidity way. Between that and my old way which focuses more on hydration, I have not noted any differences or improvements in relation to pyramiding as of yet.

 

[mctlong]

So I have been watching this forum for many months now since I have had my Leopard Tortoise. One of the major things to be seen now is that humidity is required for a smooth tort. Now I don't disagree with this because I have no evidence to do so. I just simply wanted to state of a case that I knew of where a Leopard was raised through the older methods and is as smooth as a wild Desert Tortosie! This particular tort was over 20 years old and belonged to my professor. He claims that he raised it on alfalfa pellets, kept a balanced diet, and (like all his torts) gave it free range outside during the warms months (I live in south Georgia so we definitely do have high humidity). Some may be wondering where this is going. Well my main basis of the post is, maybe some methods aren't completely obsolete. It may even be beneficial to have a dry and wet type season (if possible) like many areas in Africa experience. I know there is still a lot to learn about husbandry and I currently don't have the time or money to do it myself but I welcome anyone to look into it for the betterment of the care of our loved animals.

You make a good point. I think alot of us (and I myself am guilty) fall into the trap of thinking "my way is best." Truth is, there are many different husbandry methods which reduce pyramiding. It seems like keeping a tort in a "dry" enclosure worked in Georgia where there's naturally high humidity, using vitashell worked on walking rock, and Tom's high humidity enclosures work for his torts.

I'm glad this thread has been so open-minded in accepting that there is not a single best way to raise a tort. I've been on other forums where the mention of alternative husbandry methods (such as using vitashell or keeping an indoor enclosure dry) were blasted because they were not considered the "correct" method. The OPs were ridiculed and shamed for even suggesting the possibility of veering from the norm. Truth is, we are still learning about what torts need and what husbandry methods suit those needs. Open-mindedness in considering alternative husbandry methods definitely helps us grow as a community of tortoise owners. Discussing the pros and cons of differing methods, rather than just throwing out alternative or perceived outdated methods, definitely benefits both us and our tortoises.

 

[Greg T]

I don't do anything unusual with my adults. I had one juvenile I bought at 2 years which was nice and smooth and he has stayed smooth. The other juvenile I bought at 2 years old was already pyramided slightly and her situation has not worsened and has slightly smoothed out as she grows. I think I can give some credit to the Houston humidity which averages 60-70% and these guys stay outside 90% of the year. I don't spray them or even soak them often anymore. They just stay outside and enjoy the weather.

 

[Tortus]

Personally, I've raised my leopard in medium humidity conditions during the day, and high humidity conditions during the night.

I think this mimics their natural conditions. During the day, they'll be out and about looking for food. At night, they'll be buried beneath some grass or in a burrow, where the humidity is higher.

All new growth on my leopard has been smooth. Initially before I raised the humidity I think the first black growth rings raised a little, but after that nothing at all has been raised. It's all smooth.

And my leo gets a good diet. Spring mix with collards or kale, cactus pads, timothy hay, daily soaks, calcium supplements, etc.

 

[Laura]

I wonder how the animal was fed... Some people back then fed 2-3 times a week, and not daily. Do you know? Can you find out>
I would think most hatchlings inthe wild, dont have access to as much food as we supply in captivity.

 

[ianedward1]

I wonder how the animal was fed... Some people back then fed 2-3 times a week, and not daily. Do you know? Can you find out>
I would think most hatchlings inthe wild, dont have access to as much food as we supply in captivity.

I believe that for the juvenilles he feeds about 5 times a week and uses collards, spring mix, turnip greens, and sometimes mazuri. I know that he only feeds his adults at most 2 times a week and lets them graze outside on their own.

 

[DesertGrandma]

I have mentioned this before, but I think heredity plays a role, how much I don't know. I am raising three leos from the same clutch, in the same enclosure, same food, same time outside, soaking every day, moisture up in enclosure, etc. etc. I got them at two months of age, they are now almost a year old. One is pretty pyrimided now, not at two months though. The other two are smooth. The one that is pyramided has had different characteristics from the beginning, color, shape, size, etc. Strangely enough the one with the pyramiding is the smallest, eats less, which one could say goes against the ideas of growing slower causes less pyramiding. I think they might also have some GPP mixed in due to their spots. The smaller pyramided one has regular spots, the two smoother ones have a couple of double-dotted scutes. It is all very interesting to me, and from my perspective points to an element of heredity as well as humidity/hydration.

---

Can a clutch of eggs have come from different males?

 

[Levi the Leopard]

I have mentioned this before, but I think heredity plays a role, how much I don't know. I am raising three leos from the same clutch, in the same enclosure, same food, same time outside, soaking every day, moisture up in enclosure, etc. etc. I got them at two months of age, they are now almost a year old. One is pretty pyrimided now, not at two months though. The other two are smooth. The one that is pyramided has had different characteristics from the beginning, color, shape, size, etc. Strangely enough the one with the pyramiding is the smallest, eats less, which one could say goes against the ideas of growing slower causes less pyramiding. I think they might also have some GPP mixed in due to their spots. The smaller pyramided one has regular spots, the two smoother ones have a couple of double-dotted scutes. It is all very interesting to me, and from my perspective points to an element of heredity as well as humidity/hydration.

this is interesting to me.

would you post a picture of all 3?

i'd love to see this example of 3 clutchmates, raised together, raised the same but different results.

 

[DesertGrandma]

BTW, the pyramiding doesn't really bother me as long as she is healthy.

---

I have mentioned this before, but I think heredity plays a role, how much I don't know. I am raising three leos from the same clutch, in the same enclosure, same food, same time outside, soaking every day, moisture up in enclosure, etc. etc. I got them at two months of age, they are now almost a year old. One is pretty pyrimided now, not at two months though. The other two are smooth. The one that is pyramided has had different characteristics from the beginning, color, shape, size, etc. Strangely enough the one with the pyramiding is the smallest, eats less, which one could say goes against the ideas of growing slower causes less pyramiding. I think they might also have some GPP mixed in due to their spots. The smaller pyramided one has regular spots, the two smoother ones have a couple of double-dotted scutes. It is all very interesting to me, and from my perspective points to an element of heredity as well as humidity/hydration.

this is interesting to me.

would you post a picture of all 3?

i'd love to see this example of 3 clutchmates, raised together, raised the same but different results.

Sure. Will do. Give me a few minutes (hours?, LOL).

---

Okay, here they are:


No. 1 is the one that is pyramided.

This is No. 2, pretty smooth

Here is No. 3, pretty smooth

 

[wellington]

Do you know how they were cared for right after hatching? Most think that has a lot to do with pyramiding. If kept too dry, will pyramid, no matter what we do after we get them. Some will always be different then the others, even in the same clutch, I believe. Same as in any kind of animal offspring.