Sigh..Another thread about closed chambers--please help!

[cecely]

Hi all,

I am back on TFO after a brief hiatus from technology and screens which I had to cut short because I am experiencing tortoise enclosure problems! Also, I really missed this forum

So, heres my problem: I thought I understood the heat and humidity principles of the closed chambers enough to build and maintain my own semi-enclosed version..turns out it is more difficult in practice.

I have a young Hermann's so, I didn't want to go with the fully enclosed chamber but still needed a way to bump up humidity to 60-70% which is difficult to do indoors in Southern California.

Here are some pictures of the new enclosure.

I mounted the top on braces so there is space for air exchange and for some heat to escape:

The front is open but usually covered loosely with a sun shade or plastic sheet:

It was working perfectly at first temps and humidity were ideal but over the past week or so (perhaps due to the warmer weather) humidity levels suddenly dropped and remain stubbornly at 40-45% while the ambient temp is too hot in the high 80s if I don't uncover the front. I tried covering the whole thing up with plastic but didn't do a thing for humidity. What am I doing wrong?

By the way, I am using one of those 100w reptile basking spot lamps, could it be that it may be too much for the size of the enclosure?

@Tom I think I read somewhere about a basking light you recommended, the lower wattage flood bulbs from the hardware store. But I bought the wrong one as it doesn't give off heat.

Could you take a look at these and let me know if they would work?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Illumine-65-Watt-Incandescent-BR30-Light-Bulb-10-Pack-8248066/203339036

Please help--my hands are getting cramps from the constant misting!

Thanks so much,
CC

 

[leigti]

That floodlight should work. But what are the temperatures directly under it? I can't see it very well, what are you using for UVB? Instead of misting, pour water into the substrate and stir it around with your hands. Don't worry about having vents at the top, your heat will rise and go right out of it. And you have to keep of majority of it pretty much closed or the humidity and heat will not stay in. It does take a while to tweak everything to fit your circumstances. So just research more on here, try different things until you get what works for you.

 

[cecely]

That floodlight should work. But what are the temperatures directly under it? I can't see it very well, what are you using for UVB? Instead of misting, pour water into the substrate and stir it around with your hands. Don't worry about having vents at the top, your heat will rise and go right out of it. And you have to keep of majority of it pretty much closed or the humidity and heat will not stay in. It does take a while to tweak everything to fit your circumstances. So just research more on here, try different things until you get what works for you.

The temp directly under is consistent at 95-97. I do dump water into the substrate seemingly by the bucket and it still gets bone dry after an hour or so even the bottom layers.

When I had the front tightly covered the humidity still did not change, only the heat. So I really have no idea where all the humid air is going.

But thank you for your help, I do appreciate your comment about experimenting. It's a good reminder for me, to try and figure out what works for my species and situation.

Edit: oh and I am using a UVB tube that silver thing in the back sorry will post images larger next time.

 

[Tom]

Hi all,

I am back on TFO after a brief hiatus from technology and screens which I had to cut short because I am experiencing tortoise enclosure problems! Also, I really missed this forum

So, heres my problem: I thought I understood the heat and humidity principles of the closed chambers enough to build and maintain my own semi-enclosed version..turns out it is more difficult in practice.

I have a young Hermann's so, I didn't want to go with the fully enclosed chamber but still needed a way to bump up humidity to 60-70% which is difficult to do indoors in Southern California.

Here are some pictures of the new enclosure.

I mounted the top on braces so there is space for air exchange and for some heat to escape:

The front is open but usually covered loosely with a sun shade or plastic sheet:

It was working perfectly at first temps and humidity were ideal but over the past week or so (perhaps due to the warmer weather) humidity levels suddenly dropped and remain stubbornly at 40-45% while the ambient temp is too hot in the high 80s if I don't uncover the front. I tried covering the whole thing up with plastic but didn't do a thing for humidity. What am I doing wrong?

By the way, I am using one of those 100w reptile basking spot lamps, could it be that it may be too much for the size of the enclosure?

@Tom I think I read somewhere about a basking light you recommended, the lower wattage flood bulbs from the hardware store. But I bought the wrong one as it doesn't give off heat.

Could you take a look at these and let me know if they would work?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Illumine-65-Watt-Incandescent-BR30-Light-Bulb-10-Pack-8248066/203339036

Please help--my hands are getting cramps from the constant misting!

Thanks so much,
CC

I looked at your bulb link but it doesn't say "flood" bulb anywhere that I can find. I think BR30 means its a flood bulb, but I'm not sure of that.

I usually use this one: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Sylvania...203654389?keyword=sylvania+65+watt+flood+bulb
But it very clearly says its discontinued.
This is a sticking point because I won't use spot bulbs anymore as they concentrate too much heat in one small area and tend to overly dry out the carapace and contribute to pyramiding.

If your bulb is not overheating the enclosure then it might be fine, but this also gives us a clue as to what your problem might be. In my closed chambers that are 4x8x2' a 100 watt bulb would over heat them. If your enclosure is NOT overheating with one, and if humidity just won't stay up for you, then you have too much ventilation. You simply need to close up all the holes where your warmer more humid air is escaping. With an open front and those gaps around the top, I would not call this a closed chamber.

There also seems to be this notion that a closed chamber always high humidity. This is simply not so. A closed chamber just makes it easy to have a different humidity compared to the room the enclosure sits in because the air inside the chamber is closed off from the room, instead of freely circulating. I could just as easily maintain super low humidity in a very humid room, if I wanted to. With a truly closed chamber, it should be fairly easy to maintain whatever humidity level you desire, and it also make ambient temps more stable with our wild SoCal temperature swings from day to night and seasonally.

Hope this helps.

 

[cecely]

I looked at your bulb link but it doesn't say "flood" bulb anywhere that I can find. I think BR30 means its a flood bulb, but I'm not sure of that.

I usually use this one: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Sylvania...203654389?keyword=sylvania+65+watt+flood+bulb
But it very clearly says its discontinued.
This is a sticking point because I won't use spot bulbs anymore as they concentrate too much heat in one small area and tend to overly dry out the carapace and contribute to pyramiding.

If your bulb is not overheating the enclosure then it might be fine, but this also gives us a clue as to what your problem might be. In my closed chambers that are 4x8x2' a 100 watt bulb would over heat them. If your enclosure is NOT overheating with one, and if humidity just won't stay up for you, then you have too much ventilation. You simply need to close up all the holes where your warmer more humid air is escaping. With an open front and those gaps around the top, I would not call this a closed chamber.

There also seems to be this notion that a closed chamber always high humidity. This is simply not so. A closed chamber just makes it easy to have a different humidity compared to the room the enclosure sits in because the air inside the chamber is closed off from the room, instead of freely circulating. I could just as easily maintain super low humidity in a very humid room, if I wanted to. With a truly closed chamber, it should be fairly easy to maintain whatever humidity level you desire, and it also make ambient temps more stable with our wild SoCal temperature swings from day to night and seasonally.

Hope this helps.

Tom to the rescue.
Okay, I think it has finally clicked. (I'm just going to write out my thought process here as that helps me problem solve)

Given that my enclosure overheated when I completely closed off the vents and the front, creating a "true" closed chamber, and the fact that your significantly larger enclosure overheated with a bulb of the same wattage indicates that my problem is indeed the 100w bulb.

When I first built the enclosure in cooler weather, with the side vents open and the same 100w bulb in place, this allowed cooler air to come in which reduced the overheating effects of the bulb. That explains why the recent warm weather with the vents open caused it to overheat. If I am understanding correctly, the purpose of a closed chamber is not specific to one specific goal or end (increasing temps and humidity), it is a way to completely eliminate the effects of outside variables we cannot control (the weather) and instead create what is essentially, a "mini world" inside the confines of a closed chamber.
I think the misconception that closed chambers are used to generate high heat and humidity for say a leopard or sulcata, led me to believe simply making a semi-closed chamber would be ideal for a hermann's. But now I understand there really is no such thing as a semi closed chamber. A-ha!

And so, it seems my next step should be to close off the vents and create a better seal with the plastic and shade in front. Then I'll experiment with lower wattage bulbs to correct and stabilize ambient temps.

Edit: Thanks so much Tom. Have you thought of writing a short piece or maybe even a formal article on the principles and theory of the closed chamber for tortoises? (Or maybe you already have) Given your success introducing your ideas to TFO, I'd bet it'd make for a great publication or presentation in a setting with a broader audience like a reptile magazine or convention

 

[Tom]

If I am understanding correctly, the purpose of a closed chamber is not specific to one specific goal or end (increasing temps and humidity), it is a way to completely eliminate the effects of outside variables we cannot control (the weather) and instead create what is essentially, a "mini world" inside the confines of a closed chamber.

YES! Exactly right, and this is a very good way to explain it. I will be borrowing your "mini-world" phrase in future explanations. Thank you.

 

[Tom]

And so, it seems my next step should be to close off the vents and create a better seal with the plastic and shade in front. Then I'll experiment with lower wattage bulbs to correct and stabilize ambient temps.

This is exactly what I would do.