Sand mixed with Coconut substrate..?

[HappyHermanns]

We have seen several "acceptable" substrate ideas and we aren't sure exactly which ones are correct..

We mix sand and coconut substrate 50/50 but it seems to be really hard for them to actually dig down into.
They usually end up in a corner piled on top of eachother, almost completely exposed..

We wondered about doing all coconut and no sand but we're not sure if that would be harder for them since it's almost too soft..?
Maybe sand 30% and 70% coconut..?
Sooo confused..

 

[JoesMum]

Sand is not recommended in any proportion as it sticks to food and impacts in the gut.

If coco coir isn't working for you, try orchid bark or cypress mulch or compost (make sure there's no vermiculite in it) or clean topsoil or peat

 

[HappyHermanns]

Sand is not recommended in any proportion as it sticks to food and impacts in the gut.

If coco coir isn't working for you, try orchid bark or cypress mulch or compost (make sure there's no vermiculite in it) or clean topsoil or peat

Thanks for the info!
Well.. I wouldn't say it doesn't work, we just want it to be the best for our little guys.
So if 100% coconut is good then we will use that!

 

[JoesMum]

Make sure that whatever you use is damp (not wet). This raises humidity and makes it easier to dig.

Literally dump a jug of water in and mix it with your hands.

 

[HappyHermanns]

And just put them in when it's all mixed up with the water? - cool beans!
Then when we spray it we should be kind of liberal with it? Daily? (like before they bed down for the night)?
I try to avoid hitting them with the spray water, does that bother them or would they maybe like it, like rain?

 

[JoesMum]

And just put them in when it's all mixed up with the water? - cool beans!
Then when we spray it we should be kind of liberal with it? Daily? (like before they bed down for the night)?
I try to avoid hitting them with the spray water, does that bother them or would they maybe like it, like rain?

How much water you need sprayed and mixed with the substrate depends on your home and your climate. You need a decent digital probe hygrometer to keep an eye on the humidity and you need to be sure of your temperatures - warm and humid is good, cold and humid isn't.

Torts quite like being sprayed usually - as long as the water isn't too cold. Mine lives outdoors and loves being out in the rain

 

[Tom]

Good advice from Joe's Mum, as usual.

I like to dump my water bowls in there daily as long as there is no poop in them. You may need more or less than that.

 

[HappyHermanns]

Thank you both for taking time today to help me!

I will be considering all you have said (to both questions, haha) and making notes

You both rock!

 

[WithLisa]

Sand is not recommended in any proportion as it sticks to food and impacts in the gut.

I always wonder why so many here disapprove of sand? Every garden soil contains sand, the soil in my area is very sandy but I've never heard of impactions caused by that.

 

[Yvonne G]

An excerpt written by Chris Tabaka, DVM about sand:

"3. Sand (including CalciSand). While some species actually live on sand in the wild, their foraging behavior is such that the food they eat grows above the sand rather than lying in it. Unfortunately, when the animals are fed on sand in captivity, the sand sticks to their food and a large amount of the substrate ends up being ingested. This in turn can build up to dangerous levels in their GI tracts leading to sand impactions and a twisting of the guts called colic (a common problem in horses). Feeding species that normally exist on sand in a completely separate enclosure without substrate is one way around this."

If you'll note, Dr. Tabaka mentions that tortoises living in a sandy area eat their food off stems or stalks above the ground, not laying on the ground. When we feed our tortoises on a tile or dish sitting in sand, the substrate inevitably gets on the food, and he eats it. Bit by bit, because it's heavy, it builds up in the digestive tract and eventually causes a blockage.

 

[Tom]

I always wonder why so many here disapprove of sand? Every garden soil contains sand, the soil in my area is very sandy but I've never heard of impactions caused by that.

In addition to what Yvonne listed, I work with a lot of reptile vets. My profession and my wife's profession keep us in regular contact with them, and many are friends that we hang out with socially. I went with one vet friend to the reptile show in Hamm Germany last year for example. All of our vet friends know of my tortoise obsession, so they frequently share the details of their tortoises cases with me. Some of them call me for husbandry advice. I can't even count all the tortoise sand impaction x-rays I've seen. The circumstances that cause the impaction are highly variable. Variable meaning some use a mix of sand and soil, some just have the tortoise outside on dirt that happens to be sandy, some people get sold that stupid colored reptile sand at the pet store, etc. All these cases have one thing in common. Sand. It sounds funny to say it, but you don't get a sand impacted tortoise if they are not on sand. I have not seen any impaction cases on any of the substrates that I recommend, or from other more inappropriate bedding like rabbit pellets or compressed grass pellets. Rabbit pellets may be desiccating and dusty, but they don't cause impaction. Sand does.

 

[WithLisa]

Strange, that's something neither me nor my vet has ever seen. Other substrates like gravel or repti bark, yes, but not natural soil.
So I guess you recommend to exchange the soil outside with coco coir and cypress mulch? Sounds weird to me.

 

[Tom]

So I guess you recommend to exchange the soil outside with coco coir and cypress mulch? Sounds weird to me.

You guess wrong.

I just don't feed them on sandy dirt areas with food laying directly on the sandy ground. I have many thousands of square feet of outdoor tortoise enclosures. Changing out all the dirt is not practical or necessary.

We are talking about indoor substrates here.

Lots of people still use sand mixes and their tortoises are not impacted yet. That does not make it safe or mean that someone else won't have an issue with it.

 

[jaizei]

I have not seen any impaction cases on any of the substrates that I recommend

https://books.google.com/books?id=ez7dCwAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&pg=PA119#v=onepage&q&f=false

There you go.

You guess wrong.

I just don't feed them on sandy dirt areas with food laying directly on the sandy ground. I have many thousands of square feet of outdoor tortoise enclosures. Changing out all the dirt is not practical or necessary.

We are talking about indoor substrates here.

Lots of people still use sand mixes and their tortoises are not impacted yet. That does not make it safe or mean that someone else won't have an issue with it.

If sand is really the cause of danger, then it would be necessary to excavate all of the sandy soil and replace with something more appropriate. I thought any risk was unacceptable? Just because your outside tortoises haven't become impacted yet doesn't mean it's safe.

With proper husbandry, sand as part of a mix indoors is not any different than it in a soil outdoors.

 

[Tom]

There you go.

If sand is really the cause of danger, then it would be necessary to excavate all of the sandy soil and replace with something more appropriate. I thought any risk was unacceptable? Just because your outside tortoises haven't become impacted yet doesn't mean it's safe.

With proper husbandry, sand as part of a mix indoors is not any different than it in a soil outdoors.

Oh you are right Cameron. Everything I've seen in my 30+ years of tortoise keeping has been merely a figment of my imagination.

Announcement everyone: I just made the whole thing up. Orchid bark is clearly a dangerous scourge and sand is obviously perfectly safe since sand occurs in nature in some places. We should all replace whatever is in our enclosures with sand since Jaizei the master internet searcher has clearly proven me wrong here. Think how cool all of our tanks will look with that multicolored reptile sand instead of that plain brown stuff we've all been using for years.

 

[jaizei]

Oh you are right Cameron. Everything I've seen in my 30+ years of tortoise keeping has been merely a figment of my imagination.

Announcement everyone: I just made the whole thing up. Orchid bark is clearly a dangerous scourge and sand is obviously perfectly safe since sand occurs in nature in some places. We should all replace whatever is in our enclosures with sand since Jaizei the master internet searcher has clearly proven me wrong here. Think how cool all of our tanks will look with that multicolored reptile sand instead of that plain brown stuff we've all been using for years.

You're welcome. I've seen you repeatedly say that neither you nor your many vet friends had seen impaction cases involving your preferred substrates so I thought I'd help you out. Didn't think it was exactly a secret, you know, impaction from other particulate substrates other than sand.

We can work on reading comprehension later if you'd like, seems to be a problem.

 

[Tom]

We can work on reading comprehension later if you'd like, seems to be a problem.

Oh yes. Could we? I can't thank you enough for correcting my stupidity. What would I do with out you?

Also, since I'm clearly an ignorant buffoon and you are an omnipotent genius, can you tell us what the ratio of coir or orchid bark impaction is vs. sand impaction?

I also missed the part where I said that bark impaction was completely impossible, has never happened and could never happen, but you must have known that is what I meant since you are so wise and worldly.

 

[Yvonne G]

I didn't think I would need to step in and say anything since you're both mature (?) adults, but really guys? Is this beneficial?

 

[jaizei]

I didn't think I would need to step in and say anything since you're both mature (?) adults, but really guys? Is this beneficial?

Yes.

 

[Tom]

I didn't think I would need to step in and say anything since you're both mature (?) adults, but really guys? Is this beneficial?

I think he liked it that I called him an internet search master and and omnipotent genius.

Wait. Does that qualify as a name calling rule violation… The rules don't specify that you have to call someone a bad name. Or is complementing not counted as name calling?