Raising baby easterns indoors and color development

[Tccarolina]

All of you who are or have raised eastern indoors, do you see shell color appear in your turtles? It is currently understood that the bright coloration and the black coloration in EBT shells needs sunlight in order to develop. In the absence of sunlight, dull shades of light and dark brown are what appears, with some vague lighter areas that are where the pattern should develop.
Nearly all photos of indoor raised EBT's I've seen support this. Once moved outdoors, the colors appear over time, but it may take years.

Adults kept indoors or in full shade often lose the intensity of color.

So, has anyone used artificial light and raised babies that have intense color, or even any color in an indoor environment?

Steve

 

[terryo]

I usually keep all hatchlings inside until the are 2 or 3 years old, before I put them in the big turtle garden. BUT...I use a large Christmas Tree storage bin, heavily planted for them in the Summer, so they get lots of Summer sun. I'll look for some pictures of some that inside for the Winter and then after they are outside. But I do support this theory.

 

[yagyujubei]

It would stand to reason, though, that if they're outside except for winter, I think it wouldn't be a problem. While they're hibernating, there is no light for up to 5 months.

 

[Yvonne G]

I've always wondered why my easterns are so drab. I got them from a fellow in Pennsylvania who kept them in his apartment. I don't know how long it was for them without sunshine. They've been outside here for about 3 years, but they still are pretty drab.

 

[Len B]

Baby eastern box turtles for the first few years get very little direct sunlight, They are usually hiding under or in something, leaf matter, rotting logs, rocks,tall weeds,shaded areas, etc.I feel that the youngsters don't need a lot of direct sunlight or special lighting (if any) for the first couple of years to have good bright coloration as adults, maybe I should say normal coloration because some are more brightly colored than others. Len

 

[terryo]

I agree with you Len, but I think he means adults that were raised indoors with no sunshine, and then later put outside and developed brighter colors. I got a little Eastern from a rescue whose color was kind of drab. She wasn't raised in the best conditions, and after a Summer outside her colors really brightend up. I have to see if I have any pictures.

 

[Len B]

Here is a pic I just took of my indoor youngsters, the small one is the tiny tiny one, I put a quarter in so you could how much it's grown.no shell color on the tiny one yet, but i'm sure it will come with time,The other two I think have good color for as young as they are. Len

 

[Saloli]

I think the difference may have to do with the amount of melanin in the shell and skin. I try to keep my turtles that are inside at simalar lighting to what I've read in their habitats in the wild (with a light meter). I don't use just heat and uvb lamps. Though there is a genetic limit to what colors an individual can develope. Shelly isn't as colorful as Dotty and never will be it is just not in her ability though she is still pretty.

 

[Tccarolina]

Here is the link to the article that changed my view on turtle shell coloration completely. It is totally worth reading. It will change your opinion too! ; ) Make sure you click on all the picture links, too. They are very impressive.
The article mentions also that they were unable to replicate natural sunlight with full spectrum lighting.

http://herpetology.com/belzer2/color.htm


Previous to finding this article over a year ago, I was completely in the diet camp. I was feeding my turtles tomatoes, especially yellow ones. I would gut load snails with dandelions, wild sunflowers, yellow tomatoes, and squirt them with a yellow, orange, and red reptile color enhancer. I really thought I was making a difference, too. I saw color changes in two of my turtles that had spent many years indoors in captivity and had nearly all the yellow color faded to a dull white. They both steadily regained color, and after three years, the one that I still have, Molly is steadily increasing in color.
Other turtles that I had were fresh wild caught and had the potential for really nice coloration, but the yellows were also faded. These turtles were very shy and stressed, and repeatedly sick. After repeatedly treating them, they finally stopped getting sick, but very rarely basked in the sun. They spent all their time in the deepest shade or buried. I no longer have these individuals, but I'll post some pictures next week when my computer gets back from dell (I'm on my wife's computer right now). Despite eating the same pigment-rich foods my other turtles were eating, their color almost seemed to get worse. I now believe that perhaps some turtles just never spend time soaking in the sun. For some reason, due to their habitat or personal preference, they avoid it.

Len, your babies look like they will have tremendous color, but I think if they had access to sunlight for the necessary amount of time, they would glow! And while you are right that babies spend most of their time hiding, at least some of them spend time in the sun. I found a baby in full sun in the afternoon on a Maryland mountainside. I found a 2 year old baby crossing the road in mid-morning in Virginia with intense color. My aunt found a young turtle with very vibrant color along the roadside in the sun in Virginia as well. Certainly they don't bask in the open often, but I'll bet they enjoy the sunlight that hits them while their mostly concealed in leaf litter or in clumps of grass. This occasional exposure to sunlight may be what is needed to trigger the "chromatophores" or "paracrine cells" that Belzer and Seibert refer to.

The article never states that the lack of sunlight is actually unhealthy for the turtles, just that it results in no vibrant color development and color fading.

Also, I am only talking about carapace color here. Skin coloration in reptiles is pigmented differently, and I have not seen color fading on skin areas of turtles.
Nor will sunlight change the genetic pattern of the shell.
Yvonne, your turtles may just be drab individuals. If they have lots of light pattern, then sunlight may be able to turn those light areas into vibrant yellow or orange areas.
The other factor is that just as Eastern Box turtles can have a wide range of shell shapes, patterns, colors, and skin patterns and colors, they probably can naturally vary in the genetic intensity that may be displayed. Some turtles may have faded looking light areas, and that's the best they ever will have because its genetic. Or maybe those turtles just don't like spending the time basking in the sun that other turtles do. I have a female I got this past summer that has large areas of yellow on each scute and they are intensely colored. She may have spent a lot of time basking to get that color, or maybe she just needed a limited amount of sunlight to trigger the color development and she's just a genetically bright individual. I don't know.

 

[yagyujubei]

Steve, Since you sent me that link last month, I have changed around my outside pen. No more deep shade hides. And there should be much more filtered sun there. As for my hatchlings, they're going to have to wait until May for real sun unfortunately.

---

PS? did you get any hits on your blue face quest?

 

[Tccarolina]

Steve, Since you sent me that link last month, I have changed around my outside pen. No more deep shade hides. And there should be much more filtered sun there. As for my hatchlings, they're going to have to wait until May for real sun unfortunately.

---

PS? did you get any hits on your blue face quest?

---

No, I got some good contacts, and I found out where my new male came from, but no good hits. The best was that female I emailed you pics of. I did go see her, and she was so emaciated, she looked almost dead. I later found out she died the next week.
I found the owner of the one fantastic blue headed male from South Carolina. He has no interest in selling, even though he's had some astronomical offers. It is in a first class breeding program with some females from the same locality.
Apparently, when that male gets happy or excited, the blue color lights up, so its linked to his mood, like a chameleon! He has a blue head, neck, and front legs, along with a fairly colorful shell.
There is a locality with the blue head gene in Maryland somewhere as well, supposedly.
The only other reptile subspecies besides EBT's that I can think of that has this much natural variability is maybe the panther chameleons.

Steve

 

[Saloli]

That article is basically what i said. Though most of the boxers that i have found have been in closed or almost closed canopy forest which have fairly low light levels. Though the bulbs that they used are different and they don't state what actual light levels in their indoor enviroments were. I'm not doubting their results I just wish they gave more details. My baby Atsila had orange on her and she lived inside until this summer when she was stolen. I'm not sure though I think the intensity of light may be the key factor though the lights that I use are similar in spectrum to forest lighting (atleast according to a spectrometer). Oh on a side note I've never seen a EBT with a blue face do you have any pictures? I've seen GCBT with blue and Yucatan with blue as well. You said there is a population in Maryland with blue faced members, do you know were the ones in my study areas are mostly orange or red with yellow on a black or bround base color.

 

[Tccarolina]

That article is basically what i said. Though most of the boxers that i have found have been in closed or almost closed canopy forest which have fairly low light levels. Though the bulbs that they used are different and they don't state what actual light levels in their indoor enviroments were. I'm not doubting their results I just wish they gave more details.

I haven't seen your post where you talked about actual sunlight being critical for proper color development.
Even in closed canopy forests, the turtles are able to bask in some full sun in springtime. Most turtles are also able to bask in the sunbeams that drift across the forest floor. So your ambient light measurements may be insufficient if you aren't providing the full intensity of directed sunlight occasionally.
Some individuals from the wild that have plenty of light pattern are quite faded and washed out. I wonder if those are individuals that have avoided or not had access to enough sunlight for years.

My question was hoping someone has success with raising EBT's with artificial light that produce the vivid color many young, wild turtles have.

I can't post pictures til I get my computer back.

steve

 

[Saloli]

opps i had posted that in a different forum sorry i thought it was this one but next spring i'll take some readings at my study sites in the gaps to see if they are of similar intensity to full sun or if they are of lower intensity. you have me curious, my baby Franklin is the first to have been raised inside by me so i'm not sureif his colors are normal for him (most babies i've raised have been outside their whole lives). but it seem to me anyway that if you match intesity and spectrum then results should be similar wheather the source is natural or artificial. though the only lights that i've delt with that approaches full noon sun are high out put cfls and mh. though i don't know if any body uses those for turtles.

 

[terryo]

My question was hoping someone has success with raising EBT's with artificial light that produce the vivid color many young, wild turtles have.

I can't post pictures til I get my computer back.

steve

[/quote]

I don't know if this is what you mean, but this box turtle was raised in a small tank with a 5.0 long tube light (so they told me). I got her from a rescue last year and this was her first year outside since she was hatched. She is only 4 years old and still isn't fully grown, but has beautiful color to her.

 

[Tccarolina]

Terry, your turtle looks very vibrant! Did you see a difference in intensity when she was moved outside?

Here is a young EBT my aunt spotted in Virginia. It had a very vibrant shell for such a small turtle. It was about 2.5 inches long.

Here is a recent hatchling in the midmorning sun on a mountainside in Maryland. It's coloring is just limited to the original spots, but the spots it has are more intense than any of my hatchlings at hatching time.

And here is a male EBT with some blue on his head and face. Interestingly, it seems that where the blue and yellow both exist, the skin is green!

Here is the finest looking blue individual I've seen pictures of! He has entirely blue skin, but I don't know if he has blue rear legs. This is the one that is purported to change from grayish blue to cobalt depending on his mood.

 

[terryo]

Terry, your turtle looks very vibrant! Did you see a difference in intensity when she was moved outside? Deffinately. I can't tell you if her color intensified from being outside, or because she is growing and getting older.

Here is the finest looking blue individual I've seen pictures of! He has entirely blue skin, but I don't know if he has blue rear legs. This is the one that is purported to change from grayish blue to cobalt depending on his mood.I am afraid I am a doubting Thomas with this one. I truly do not believe that his colors change according to his mood. I would have to see that with my own eyes to believe it. I have seen this picture before.

This little Eastern is only a few months old and I got him from Chris in October. He is full of yellow color. His little tail is all yellow and his legs and neck too. I can't wait to watch him grow and see how far the color will go. I have to get a better picture of him.

 

[Saloli]

any idea where in maryland? i live in thompson island essex md. my study areas are in middle river though. I'd like to see the blue faced ones if you know where they are. also you said the one hatchling was found on the side of a mountain was it near a stream? most of the babies i've found have been i stream, or marshy areas.

 

[Tccarolina]

The baby was found a long way from known water. It was in the middle of a power line cut at around 900 ft elevation. Nearest permanent water was about a 15 minute hike.

Most of the blue turtles are from a single locality in northern South Carolina, and they are very rare, so it is probably a recessive trait. Additionally, they have all been males, so it might be a sex linked trait. I'm not at liberty to say where the Maryland population is, but only one blue individual has been found.

Steve

 

[fbsmith3]

Steve, don't take this the wrong way, but, never ever ever tell where these wonderful animals come from. I would personnally love to care for a blue box turtle, but if it's possible I would rather they thrive in their natural habitat.