Raise single or groups.

[Anyfoot]

Hi all.

If I raised 3 hatchling redfoot torts in seperate enclosure(let's say for 12months) then introduced them to each other as a group instead of raising all 3 hatchling as a group. Do you think this would increase the likelihood of bullying/dominance when they are all grouped up at 12 months old.
I'm not certain how it works in the wild but I'm guessing each hatchling finds its own safe place, then at some stage they venture out and meet other torts.
I raised 3 juveniles, 2 are smooth, 1 has minor pyramiding. All 3 tret the exact same(except probably diet). The minor pyramided guy is the biggest. Why I ask myself. I wouldnt have thought it was stress because he's the biggest and the dominant one. However he was the greediest. Could it be he ate too much of the 'good stuff' before eating the greens.
If I raised 3 individually I can control the 'good stuff' easily.
I know there is an argument for pyramiding in the wild, but are these subjects because of natural unfavorable conditions at some point in their lives. We as keepers are trying to provide favorable conditions.
Has anyone raised a clutch separately?

Thanks

 

[allegraf]

Never raised anyone separately. Since I'm raising the hatchlings, it is easier to raise them all together by year. I have enough space that the bullied ones can get away and feed in a large area so everyone can eat. I find that the torts are a lot like the cichlid fish. The more there are the aggression is spread amongst the individuals in the group so no one get picked on too much. Of course there needs to be enough space and hiding spots to make this healthy. Another factor is that the bullying/pecking order has been established when they are smaller and less physical damage will occur. So long as they all have access to the food, water and quiet spots as needed.

 

[Anyfoot]

Never raised anyone separately. Since I'm raising the hatchlings, it is easier to raise them all together by year. I have enough space that the bullied ones can get away and feed in a large area so everyone can eat. I find that the torts are a lot like the cichlid fish. The more there are the aggression is spread amongst the individuals in the group so no one get picked on too much. Of course there needs to be enough space and hiding spots to make this healthy. Another factor is that the bullying/pecking order has been established when they are smaller and less physical damage will occur. So long as they all have access to the food, water and quiet spots as needed.

Thanks allegraf.

 

[Tom]

As a disclaimer, I have very little RF experience, but I can speak about all the species I do have experience with.

I have found that hatchlings raised with other hatchlings are less prone to aggression with conspecifics later on. Hatchlings raised alone for months or years, and then added to a group tend to be either aggressive or reclusive at first, but usually settle down in time when they get used to the stimulation of other tortoises walking around them all day. Adult male-male aggression, and combative species like russians, might present some exceptions to this generality.

Bigger, greedier, hungrier, better appetite does NOT equal dominant. In fact it can be the opposite. Many times the dominant tort will march about strutting his stuff and patrolling his territory, while the other less dominant tortoises sit at the food tray and stuff themselves. I have not seen any consistent correlation between those fast growing tortoises with the big appetites and dominance. The two traits do not necessarily occur in the same tortoise, and frequently don't.

 

[Anyfoot]

Thanks Tom. I originally put this thread in the general section hoping you would chime in.
I'm trying to fathom out why one out of three would show pyramiding. I can only think it could be diet or stress levels. Reason I was hoping for your input was because you have herbivores, the diet would have less of an impact than carnivores if diet came into play regarding pyramiding. So if you have the same problem as I am it ain't the diet.
In omnivores the ratio of fruit,protein and foliage could be variable.

Just to make the math simple and taking it to the extreme possibility.
If everyday I fed to my 3 tortoises 66.6% foliage and 33.3% fruit and protein, and the greedy one ate all the fruit and protein leaving foliage for the other 2 would it effect pyramiding.
I get what Alegra is saying and its right. I've always fed them on one slate. So regardless of space they all have to come to that one feeding area to eat(juveniles only). Recently I've thought I need more than one feeding station for the juveniles.
My point is, if I've forced all 3 torts to feed in the same area and the largest has always muscled in for the fruit and this tort showed signs of pyramiding, is that just a coincidence.
I eventually had to split them when feeding protein because the greedy one would try and eat everyones. Yes a vast space may avoid this, but does my scenario prove that the wrong ratio in a omnivores diet will show effect as pyramiding.

All that said, if that was the case the 2 that are smooth have lacked in fruit and protein. Also I can't imagine a redfoot in the wild turning it's nose up to a fig because it thinks it should eat some weeds for its health.

I'm starting to think towards stress after what you said. Only thing is, one of the smooth ones(the smallest) has always been very shy and reserved, I assumed this was a bit of pecking order towards this tort.

 

[Tom]

I've raised a lot of groups of several species in recent years. I can find no consistent factor in why some will pyramid no matter what I do, while others don't when raised in the same enclosures and fed the same foods.

They can be siblings or unrelated. I've tried to narrow down every factor and there are always multiple exceptions to every rule. Stress, diet preferences, humidity, sleeping habits, genetics, etc... I've eliminated every variable I can think of.

I'm don't have an absolute fool proof answer. I only have generalities that generally work. I still have much to learn.

 

[Pearly]

This is a very interesting thread Craig. I wish I knew how to "follow" it on my iphone. My babies are still together and seem ok, but you know how crazy about plants and landscaping I am (plenty places to hide/get away if needed) and I usually stick around for a while at feedings. They each seem to mind their own food but maybe it's bcs I always tend to overdo it and put down way more than what they can eat. Anyways, my grandorts are yearlings now and beginning to spend more and more time in their big tortoise garden (outdoors)during a day now. So far I've seen no need to separate them. As for food preferences, Shellie will always go for any fruit. She will smell a prickly pear or melon, or berry, or ripe fig from a distance and will clean up the plate to the last bit of it. Tucker will always go out of his way to pick out the last bits of anything-meat, he has this "shrimp radar", they both love cooked shrimp. Shellie also loves mushrooms. Tucker will eat fruit and mushrooms, but not as enthused about them as he is about his ... steamed or boiled shrimp. This is the readon why I chop and mix their food to this day, to get them to eat greens and cactus and stuff that's good for them. As for pyramiding.., hm... I don't know. You've seen my babies. Their shells are kinda groovy but generally I think looking healthy. To be completely honest with you I suspect my greens:fruit/veg: protein ratio is less than ideal as I usually bribe them to eat with their favorites which I put on top of their salad and mix some in with the greens/little Mazuri or other soaked/mashed dry food and cactus. Oh well!!! I'm just a typical grandma! Bribing naughty spoiled kids with their favorite treats