First signs of pyramiding or paranoid owner?

[Mgridgaway]

Hello all!

I'm here with Darwin again, but I'm a little worried. I was looking at his shell and noticed that's just very slightly raised... probably less than a millimeter. Is this just me being paranoid or is a sign that I'm doing something wrong? I want to nip this in the bud while it's still minor.

I guess the best way to describe it is that I can put my finger nail in between every scute and trace a line around them. I've tried to take some pictures.

 

[tortoise-kid]

From the pictures you really can not see anything, so I think your just being paranoid. Which in this case is a good thing because it shows you care about Darwin.

 

[Mgridgaway]

Ok, I took a new picture very similar to the picture I took on day one. To me it does look like pyramiding. Thoughts?

Granted the lighting in the first photo is much nicer than the second, but I can see the difference.

Edit: Here's another picture... I think it's a bit sharper and the lighting is a bit better.

 

[Madkins007]

So far, you have wide, thick growth rings. They MAY develop into pyramiding, or may indicate accelerated growth, which is not a big deal as long as the bones, scutes, and everything else is growing at the same rate.

Can you remind us- what and how much you feed?

 

[Mgridgaway]

Sure thing, Madkins. I usually have a quasi-3 day cycle of food that I feed Darwin. It's sort of a mix of the various diets around.

Day 1 is typically a green and vegetable (collard, mushroom, carrot tend to be popular options but I try to add a new thing when I have them)
Day 2 is fruit day (mango, apple, cantaloupe, strawberry, etc... whatever I have at the moment)
Day 3 is 2 pellets of Mazuri, moistened
Day 4 is green and veggie
Day 5 is fruit
Day 6 is green and veggie
Day 7 is 2 pellets of Mazuri, moistened

I sprinkle a multi-vitamin (Centrum Silver for Women) once-ish a week onto his Mazuri (it's the only way I know he'll eat it, he loves Mazuri). He also has free access to his cuttlebone, which he chomps on occasionally.

As to how much, I typically allow him to eat until he walks away and then remove the extra.


Please advise as necessary!

 

[Tom]

I don't see any sign of pyramiding there. I see normal growth lines. They key is hydration. humidity and shell spraying. Every perfect redfoot I have seen has used the "spray them 'til they drip, 3-4 times a day" technique.

Do a search for "Pio" if you want to see a perfect redfoot shell.

 

[tortoise-kid]

Even from the new pictures the little guy still looks like a fantastic tort.

 

[Mgridgaway]

After reading a little more about diets, I think lowering the amount of fruit I give him would be a good place to start. Right now it's all you can eat in one sitting, but I'm going to limit it to what Terry recommends. Green day will still be all you can eat, and mazuri will still be 2 kibbles, twice a week (unless you think I should just give him one?)

 

[Madkins007]

Here is what I would recommend if you are going to use Terry's diet plan, based on research, experience, and talking to other breeders...

1. Only feed his listed 'wet, sweet' fruits once a week, or even once every couple of weeks.
2. Replace most 'fruit days' with some greens and some veggies with seeds (squash, pumpkin, cucumber, bell peppers, etc.)
3. Add mushrooms to the diet- possibly in place of some of the wet, sweet fruits.
4. Add Spring Mix, cabbage, and other lettuces and greens to the food list.
5. Use a little calcium supplement a few times a week, especially on lettuce and fruit
6. Offer meat protein from the beginning- starting with small worms, egg, bits of chicken or oily fish, etc. They probably don't need much, and I would not feed very young torts cat or dog kibble just because there are more nutrient-packed options available.
7. Consider adding a boost of fiber, especially to the fruit days. I crunch up rabbit Timothy hay blocks into a parsley-like material.
8. If you are not using a UVB bulb or cannot offer real, unfiltered sunshine, it NEEDS vitamin D. I would use liquid D3 drops a few times a week- although good UVB lighting is better.
9. Add a little bit of a crushed human multivitamin once every week or two.

I would cut back on the calorie-rich foods- wet sweet fruits, kibbles, etc. Not drastically- just tweaking. (In another thread you ask about kibble, and I did not realize that it was as part of a fresh diet.)

 

[Mgridgaway]

Thanks for the advice, Madkins. And yes, sorry, I forgot to mention that the Mazuri was part of a fresh diet.

Just to reply to the points:

1) Darwin is going to be very angry with this news! He loves his mango!
2) Shouldn't be a problem. Darwin likes butternut squash, but doesn't seem to care for zucchini. I'll try other the others.
3) Also shouldn't be a problem. Darwin goes crazy for mushrooms.
4) No problems here
5) A calcium supplement in addition to his cuttlebone and multivitamin? I was worried adding calcium carbonate might overdo it, but if you say so.
6) I just fed Darwin his first bit of boiled egg last week. How often should I feed a meat protein to a young tort? Once every other week? Once a month?
7) Easily done, we have a guinea pig.
8) I have a ZooMed Powersun MVB on one side of his cage... owning an Iguana, I know all about UVB
9) Already done!

That cuts back on half the sweet wet fruit I'm feeding Darwin... should I still cut back on Mazuri? I'm only feeding him it twice a week to begin with, 2 kibbles moistened.

 

[Madkins007]

Calcium- Multivitamins don't have much calcium in them, and you don't need to do the vitamin and calcium on the same day- you can even skip a day between without problem. Cuttlebones are really great, but I would not worry about counting it towards the calcium total. A 100gr/4oz. tortoise would need about 12 calories a day, which means about 30 milligrams of calcium a day. If you are feeding calcium rich foods, like collard greens, you would not need to supplement it. Lettuce and most fruits and vegetables are low so I add a tiny bit to those meals.

To define what I mean by 'tiny bit'- I make a mix for my torts- about a cup of ground/shredded Timothy hay, about a tablespoon of calcium powder, and a crushed vitamin tablet, all tossed together. My herd of 4 yearlings gets about 2 loose cups of lettuce on a lettuce day and I will sprinkle a good pinch of this mix over the entire thing- like I was adding a little pepper to a dish. Since there is only a tablespoon of calcium in a cup of this stuff, the pinch I am using is a very small amount of calcium powder- and much less multivitamin. (By the way, I keep the mix in an airtight container between uses. I figure it will stay good almost forever, and the cup has lasted me several months now.)

Again, I don't add it at all if the meal is already calcium-rich- collards, turnip greens, dandelion greens, mulberry leaves, Mazuri, etc.

Protein to the young tort- As I've said in other threads, there is dang little hard research into the nutritional needs of young torts. There is a theory that they eat more insects than we might otherwise think- many young reptiles do. My own personal theory is unlimited worms and bugs, otherwise a fairly light amount of a variety of meats weekly.

 

[Mgridgaway]

Thanks for taking the time to write that Mark, I really appreciate it

Just to clarify... the multivitamin I use is Centrum Women's Silver for 50+, which is important to mention because it has a higher than average concentration of calcium in it to help women with calcium deficiencies. Each pill is 500mg of calcium and I use a small pinch twice a week. Should I still use calcium powder as well with this in mind?

 

[Madkins007]

If you are using that tablet as your main calcium source, I would actually suggest switching to just plain calcium powder to avoid any risk of overdoing the other nutrients in it, then use the powder 2-4 times a week (small pinches) and a pinch of the vitamin once a week depending on the diet.

The goal is to provide about 1.3 to 8mg of calcium per calorie of food a day. (The calorie formula is weight in kilograms to the 0.75th power, times 72... or look at this chart- https://sites.google.com/site/tortoiselibrary/nutrition/guidelines-and-dosages