Pyrimiding

[nbamburg]

I feel like my torty is starting to pyramid. I just recently upgraded her enclosure size. I have a heat lamp do to lower temps outside and the house is drafty. Amy advise? I am trying my hardest to do what right.

 

[wellington]

She hasn't started pyramiding, she's been doing it for a while and has quite a bit. She should have been raised in a closed chamber with 80% humidity.
Get it closed up and the humidity up to help stop it from getting worse.

 

[nbamburg]

She hasn't started pyramiding, she's been doing it for a while and has quite a bit. She should have been raised in a closed chamber with 80% humidity.
Get it closed up and the humidity up to help stop it from getting worse.

Thank you for responding

 

[Tom]

I feel like my torty is starting to pyramid. I just recently upgraded her enclosure size. I have a heat lamp do to lower temps outside and the house is drafty. Amy advise? I am trying my hardest to do what right.

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. Open topped enclosures don't work because they are too dry.

I will leave two threads with the correct care info for how to house your tortoise. Stopping severe pyramiding like this in progress is much more difficult than preventing it. You will need to go way overboard with the humidity, soaking, and spraying the tortoise. You will also need to make sure you have the right bulbs, as the wrong ones contribute to more pyramiding. Questions are welcome. We are happy to help you.

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[nbamburg]

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. Open topped enclosures don't work because they are too dry.

I will leave two threads with the correct care info for how to house your tortoise. Stopping severe pyramiding like this in progress is much more difficult than preventing it. You will need to go way overboard with the humidity, soaking, and spraying the tortoise. You will also need to make sure you have the right bulbs, as the wrong ones contribute to more pyramiding. Questions are welcome. We are happy to help you.

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

Thank you so much

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

You need to get your tortoise to a closed chamber to stop this. Have you looked at greenhouse tents as an option to modify your current set up?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Yes she is pyramiding, this could be down to both the fact she’s too dry and incorrect lighting can contribute.

As well as toms threads, I’d use this to double check your equipment and levels, It covers equipment, levels, importance of a closed chamber for younger tortoises(only way to maintain the humidity you need), appropriately maintaining the humidity, substrates, there’s lots of visual examples for everything and a really handy diet link to check out! If going with a greenhouse, the lower the ceiling height, whilst still allowing for recommended bulb height, the better!

Leopard/sulcata starter

Hello there! In this thread I’m going to include some information below on how I’d personally tackle an indoor starter set up for a leopard/sulcata until they’re bigger. Hopefully it helps give people some ideas!” I know it looks like a lot to go over, I like to make sure all bases are covered...

tortoiseforum.org

This includes some more closed chamber options, bear in mind sizing for a growing sulcata

Visual inspiration

Hi guys! I’ve had some lovely messages complimenting me on my care sheets I made for all the visuals they include! That makes me so happy because as a visual learner myself, that was my goal🥰 I’ve recently had some requests for some more visual inspiration for set ups that can house babies/...

tortoiseforum.org

Lastly, probably the most important, this one is also really good to familiarise yourself with, it’ll help you avoid the wrong bulbs, substrates, housing etc, I always encourage double checking purchases on the forum too before buying

Common keeping errors

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...

tortoiseforum.org

Hope they help! Always happy to try answering any further questions once you’ve read them! Welcome to the forum

 

[nbamburg]

You need to get your tortoise to a closed chamber to stop this. Have you looked at greenhouse tents as an option to modify your current set up?

I have not because I was unaware it was needed, I have heard mixed telling's about humidity. I appreciate your help!

 

[nbamburg]

Thank you so much!

 

[nbamburg]

I do have a UVB bulb installed and a heat emitter. I recently added the heat lamp due to cooler temps.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I have not because I was unaware it was needed, I have heard mixed telling's about humidity. I appreciate your help!

Sulcatas do benefit from living in a closed chamber when they are under 10 inches and still growing. Remember that the wild and captive management are two different things BUT sulcatas do hatch during a humid season in their natural habitat.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I do have a UVB bulb installed and a heat emitter. I recently added the heat lamp due to cooler temps.

What kind of heat lamp and UVB? I am asking, because some bulbs can have a desiccating effect and worsen pyramiding.

 

[nbamburg]

As I am reading through some of what was sent, I am sure it is the wrong kind. It is a "coil" kind. I have a linear tube UVB I can switch it out with though

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

As I am reading through some of what was sent, I am sure it is the wrong kind. It is a "coil" kind. I have a linear tube UVB I can switch it out with though

Yeah definitely avoid the coils, mercury vapour, halogens, I’d switch to your tube, but id make sure it’s a reliable brand as some of the off brand tubes aren’t efficient enough unfortunately. If you have any further queries on anything we’re happy to help! It’s great you’re ready to make the changes needed

 

[NYJoe]

Pyramiding is primally caused by low humidity where the shell is consistently too dry. The proper humidity is species dependent. Keep in mind that humans prefer much lower humidity than tortoises. For indoor enclosures balancing the proper humidity for tortoise and human habitats becomes and engineering challenge.

In nature, many tortoises expose themselves to high humidity by burrowing into moist substrates that are wet to the touch. A sulcata tortoise will borrow a tunnel that is many feet deep. They will alternate this by basking in the sun where fungus growth will be stopped. In North America, think of the Eastern Box Turtle that burrows into wet leaves during warm or hot days.

The challenge in cooler North American climates is keeping proper humidity for warm climate species during cold months. The heat needed to keep the animal warm also causes low humidity. This is the opposite thermodynamic effect of a typical tortoise burrow where outside warm humid air will increase in humidity as it cools entering the burrow.

So what to do when keeping the tortoise indoors? Setup a controlled environment with the proper heat and humidity. Heat can use lamps, heat mats, air heaters, building heat, or whatever is available and properly protected from burning the animal. Setup a temperature gradient during day lighting hours with a warm basking spot and a cooler hiding space. Humidity can be maintained with moist substrate, water containers large enough for bathing, and humidifiers. Small enclosures can use reptile humidifiers. Larger enclosures can consider household humidifiers. Still the most effective method is likely moist substrate of some type of combination of clean soil, clean leaves, hay, and straw. All the water will need constant replenishing as the heat dries it.

Other factors that contribute to pyramiding are diet and lighting, because these impact bone growth. The most common cause is low humidity. The enclosure in the photo is setup to be very dry.

 

[wellington]

Pyramiding is primally caused by low humidity where the shell is consistently too dry. The proper humidity is species dependent. Keep in mind that humans prefer much lower humidity than tortoises. For indoor enclosures balancing the proper humidity for tortoise and human habitats becomes and engineering challenge.

In nature, many tortoises expose themselves to high humidity by burrowing into moist substrates that are wet to the touch. A sulcata tortoise will borrow a tunnel that is many feet deep. They will alternate this by basking in the sun where fungus growth will be stopped. In North America, think of the Eastern Box Turtle that burrows into wet leaves during warm or hot days.

The challenge in cooler North American climates is keeping proper humidity for warm climate species during cold months. The heat needed to keep the animal warm also causes low humidity. This is the opposite thermodynamic effect of a typical tortoise burrow where outside warm humid air will increase in humidity as it cools entering the burrow.

So what to do when keeping the tortoise indoors? Setup a controlled environment with the proper heat and humidity. Heat can use lamps, heat mats, air heaters, building heat, or whatever is available and properly protected from burning the animal. Setup a temperature gradient during day lighting hours with a warm basking spot and a cooler hiding space. Humidity can be maintained with moist substrate, water containers large enough for bathing, and humidifiers. Small enclosures can use reptile humidifiers. Larger enclosures can consider household humidifiers. Still the most effective method is likely moist substrate of some type of combination of clean soil, clean leaves, hay, and straw. All the water will need constant replenishing as the heat dries it.

Other factors that contribute to pyramiding are diet and lighting, because these impact bone growth. The most common cause is low humidity. The enclosure in the photo is setup to be very dry.

Some of your info is incorrect. Soil, leaves and hay/straw should not be used. It molds easily and soil bought from a store can have all kinds of crap in it.
Orchid/fir bark or coconut coir should be used. Dampened so the humidity is maintained at 80%.
Also, diet does not contribute to pyramiding, it's lack of humidity. Mercury, halogen and spot bulbs can also contribute to pyramiding.
Also, humidifiers or misters should not be used in closed chambers.
Please study the care on this forum more so you repeat the proper info.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Some of your info is incorrect. Soil, leaves and hay/straw should not be used. It molds easily and soil bought from a store can have all kinds of crap in it.
Orchid/fir bark or coconut coir should be used. Dampened so the humidity is maintained at 80%.
Also, diet does not contribute to pyramiding, it's lack of humidity. Mercury, halogen and spot bulbs can also contribute to pyramiding.
Also, humidifiers or misters should not be used in closed chambers.
Please study the care on this forum more so you repeat the proper info.

> Also, diet does not contribute to pyramiding, it's lack of humidity

It's a contributing factor. Wrong diet can amplify pyramiding (perhaps, because underlying bone has lower density). There are papers with groups of tortoises in low humidity/high humidity environments and high starch/low starch diets. Pyramiding was prominent in all low-humidity environments and the most notable in low-humidity high-starch diet group.

 

[wellington]

> Also, diet does not contribute to pyramiding, it's lack of humidity

It's a contributing factor. Wrong diet can amplify pyramiding (perhaps, because underlying bone has lower density). There are papers with groups of tortoises in low humidity/high humidity environments and high starch/low starch diets. Pyramiding was prominent in all low-humidity environments and the most notable in low-humidity high-starch diet group.

It's has been said over and over and over, that diet does not contribute to pyramiding! I don't go by your papers, I go by the proof, mainly Tom, that is on this forum!
No, diet does not contribute to pyramiding. In a dry environment they will pyramid no matter the diet, good or bad. In a high humidity environment, that same diet will not make them pyramid!
If we followed the papers, books and old info, we would all have tortoises pyramided as bad as my leopard, who was started years ago all wrong, with wrong lighting.
If I missed one of Toms threads about diet now contributing to pyramiding, please attach it. Because since 2011 when I joined, it does not!

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

It's has been said over and over and over, that diet does not contribute to pyramiding! I don't go by your papers, I go by the proof, mainly Tom, that is on this forum!
No, diet does not contribute to pyramiding. In a dry environment they will pyramid no matter the diet, good or bad. In a high humidity environment, that same diet will not make them pyramid!
If we followed the papers, books and old info, we would all have tortoises pyramided as bad as my leopard, who was started years ago all wrong, with wrong lighting.
If I missed one of Toms threads about diet now contributing to pyramiding, please attach it. Because since 2011 when I joined, it does not!

Disregarding recent research and others experience is the dead end.

Nevertheless:
Here is Tom's post:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/curly-kale.13230/page-2#post-120108 - same as I said. Cause of pyramiding is drying of keratin, diet is a contributing factor.

Markw84:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/does-diet-contribute-to-pyramiding.153647/page-3#post-1511103 ("I do feel MBD will exacerbate the pyramiding as the bone remains much more pliable. But the scute growth causes the pyramiding.")

 

[Tom]

> Also, diet does not contribute to pyramiding, it's lack of humidity

It's a contributing factor. Wrong diet can amplify pyramiding (perhaps, because underlying bone has lower density). There are papers with groups of tortoises in low humidity/high humidity environments and high starch/low starch diets. Pyramiding was prominent in all low-humidity environments and the most notable in low-humidity high-starch diet group.

Technically you are correct, but that is only in extreme and rare cases. It is not easy to create MBD in a tortoise, and it takes months of poor diet and poor care for it to progress to a point where soft underlying bone due to MBD complications could affect scute shape on the surface. Thinking about it, I'm still not sure soft bone underneath would cause pyramiding if the tortoise was in the correct humid environment. Its scute malformation due to dry conditions that causes the bone underneath to deform. It could be argued that soft bone could deform more easily than healthy dense bone, but it is still the dry growth that would cause the deformation.

Generally speaking, in the vast majority of cases, diet has nothing to do with pyramiding. If they are in a humid closed chamber with daily soaks, and even an occasional UV source like the sun on occasional trips to the great outdoors or an indoor UV source, you can feed them all wrong and they won't pyramid. Conversely, if kept in a dry, open topped enclosure with low humidity and the wrong bulbs, the best diet in the world will not prevent pyramiding.