Pyramiding?!?!

[Elohi]

Ok, I am concerned that Beans is pyramiding. Freckles has smoothed out since getting her and Watson isn't as smooth as I'd like but it's Beans that got me scratching my head.
Here is beans. She has shown very rapid growth. She was smallest and quickly surpassed the other two and is the largest. They are all housed together in a closed chamber. What can I do??






Here is freckles. She is smoother than when I got her. And growing much slower than the other two.



Watson growing well with less pyramiding.

 

[Saleama]

My Sulcatas are housed in the same crate (seperated by a wall) as my Leos yet, the Sullys are all slowly getting bumpy and the Leos are still faily smooth. I have a tropical rain forest in there and the only difference is the Leos have plants and hide under the damp moss while the Sullys kill everything I plant and tear up the moss. Leos refuse to go in their hot moist hide while the Sullys pile in theirs as soon as the lights go out. I even give the Sullys extra bath time, which they seem to enjoy.

 

[julietteq]

How close are your lights/heat emitters to the top of your tortoises carapace and what is the wattage of the lights?

 

[Elohi]

100watt MVB and 60watt CHE
Both are 12 inches from the substrate surface. The mvb is partially over their humid hide and a flat rock.
Flat rock temp is 102.
Temp is currently 95 in their chamber because the humidifier is on. It's usually 91 in there during the day.
Humidity is currently 80% exactly. Fluctuated between 79 and 99 depending on when I've misted or used the humidifier.
Just checked a carapace temp for the tort that is out and somewhat under the mvb. Temp is 96.
I never see them lay out on their flat rock. They will lay around the perimeter of the mvb on moss or under a fake plant.

 

[julietteq]

Well, I think that is very close to the top of the carapace. I had a similar issue with my leo's although they have lived on an open table. I have also one leo that is significantly darker and grows faster then the other and he/she started pyramiding. I have raised the lights to 30 inches from the substrate. I have also stopped feeding them every day (I know only feed once every 2 days) and I have changed their diet to mainly homegrown grasses, cactus, Cactus fruit, Aloe Vera and weeds.

I am really getting more and more convinced that it is the "drying" effect of the lights/heat emitters. The extreme high humidity could possibly compensate for the drying effect which would explain why we can prevent pyramiding in closed chambers with extreme humidity.

You can check the links in my signature to see where my leos live.

 

[Yvonne G]

I really like using the moist sphagnum moss in the hides. I have all open topped bins for my babies (desert tortoises, leopards) and I moisten the substrate as it dries, but I keep moist moss in the hiding places with under-the-substrate heat under the hiding places. So far it has worked well for me.

 

[Elohi]

I have moist moss in their hides as well. I spray inside of their hides when I spray the whole enclosure.
If I saw them hanging out under either heat source I would assume it was from that. But I just don't ever see that and I check I them all the time. This is really bothering me so I need to make some changes.

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Also, they soak themselves from time to time. I see them drink regularly. (Cutest and most reassuring sign that they are doing well, for me). I see them pee. They are pooping machines. Both in their enclosure and when I soak them.

 

[Dizisdalife]

Well, I think that is very close to the top of the carapace. I had a similar issue with my leo's although they have lived on an open table.

I am really getting more and more convinced that it is the "drying" effect of the lights/heat emitters. The extreme high humidity could possibly compensate for the drying effect which would explain why we can prevent pyramiding in closed chambers with extreme humidity.

I agree with this. In the Advanced Topic section there is a recent thread on "the physiology of pyramiding" (maybe not the exact subject line). The thread was active around Christmas/New Years if you want to look at it. There was some data presented (seems like it was in the first few pages if you go looking for it) that showed the humidity at the shell was very low compared to the high ambient humidity. It stands to reason that the hot lights, and to a lesser degree the hot CHE's, dry the shell.

I don't have an answer for the problem other than to raise the lights. You will still need to have a basking spot, and heat, and UVB for your tortoise.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

I agree with Joe.

Frances (lilacdragon) has helped explain about the desiccating effects from the high wattage bulbs. She explains about IR-A in that thread Joe mentioned.

If you can't raise the lights, try a lower wattage basking bulb. I only use 60watts. My CHE is 100watt but I have the water dish placed below it so they can't lay directly under. Plus it only clicks on/off a few times because of the thermostat.

 

[Elohi]

Do they make 60watt mvb? Should I go another route? I'm so upset that this seems to have come on all the sudden. They've been so smooth [LOUDLY CRYING FACE]

 

[julietteq]

I think your best option is to raise the lights. The thing is, the rays of the lights will warm a bigger surface if your raise them. The reason why the low lights become more damaging when the torts are growing is because they will only warm "part" of the carapace. Imagine a light shining at a penny, the whole penny will be warmed up. Now replace the penny by a watermelon, now only part of the melon will get warm. The only way to heat the entire melon surface is raising the lights, not by changing the wattage. This was explained a lot better in the thread by Lilac dragon I am afraid

I believe you are using closed chambers which would obviously make raising the lights difficult since you then will have to increase the 'height' of your tank. What may work is closing off half of the tank and put the lights above the "open" part of the tank but at a higher level? I have seen the videos of your enclosures on your facebook page and they are wonderful !

 

[Elohi]

For the time being I have switched my two domes. Mvb over the waterdish side and CHE over the flat rock and their hide. I'm kind of stressed out about this. Possibly more than I should be but I am a perfectionist and I love my animals like I love my kids. I want the best of what I can offer for them all. I feel a bit like a failure at the moment even though I know further damage is preventable and I will do whatever I need to do to remedy this situation.

 

[julietteq]

Please do not feel guilty, your tortoises have a wonderful enclosure which shows how much you love them! I have found the link about the lights. It really did miracles for my tortoises together with the thread about pyramiding. It http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-84606.html (effect of lights and heat)
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-83263.html (pyramiding)

I have also noticed that my darker leo's carapace (the one who started pyramiding) is on av. 2 F higher in temperature then my high white leo. I think the more heat the carapace absorbs, the more prone they are to pyramiding. Another significant difference between my 2 leos is their appetite and subsequently growth rate. The dark leo eats more and grows faster

Keep us posted about the solution you have found. We can all learn from it and improve our habitats accordingly.

 

[Tom]

How were these babies started right after hatching? How old were they when you got them?

This is not new. The angle of this mild pyramiding looks pretty consistent from the earliest growth. The two most recent growth rings actually appear to be smoothing out.

 

[Elohi]

How were these babies started right after hatching? How old were they when you got them?

This is not new. The angle of this mild pyramiding looks pretty consistent from the earliest growth. The two most recent growth rings actually appear to be smoothing out.

My first one, the smallest currently is Freckles. I got her from Arizona Sulcata (austin). She was slightly pyramided at arrival on November 5th. She was approximately 4 months old then.

Then I received Beans and Watson from Greg T on November 19th. I believe they were 8-9 weeks old. They did have the back edge of their center scutes raised but were otherwise smooth. That pattern has continued with their growth. More so in Beans as hers was more pronounced. She was very small when I got her and she has had massive growth and surpassed her much larger clutch mate, Watson, and is much larger than Freckles.

Ok this is Watson the day I received him and the dark one, Beans. I don't have a good picture of Beans that I could access from my phone at the moment. But I posted the other clutch mate to show the raised back edge of the top scutes. Two are raised but only the one shows well in this pic. The tortoise in question had a more significant raised back edge but was completely smooth otherwise. Beautiful in every way. If I can find a picture of her carapace I will post it. Again, just using his as an example. I think they were started properly, as Greg T's babies are amazing and were significantly smoother than Freckles was upon arrival. Their growth has blown my mind.





^^this is Beans. This sort of shows the raised scutes.



^^this is a picture of her on January 15th. Picture is a little deceiving as the back edges have always been raised.

More enclosure pics.





Last pic is of the inside of the humid hide. It's much larger than it appears.

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So apparently my care is lacking and I need to fix it...like yesterday. I did swap locations of the mvb and the CHE for the temporary and will try and find a lower wattage mvb. If not, will raising it work if I foil the gap between the dome and the plexiglas? That would make cleaning, feeding, watering, and handling them difficult though. So if I can. Not find a lower wattage mvb then I will find a tube bulb fixture and appropriate UVB bulb. Put a lower wattage incandescent bulb in place of the mvb and hope that fixes this issue.

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Oh good grief!! And where are the tortoises now that I moved the mvb to the other side of the enclosure? BACK IN THAT BROKEN POT! (For those of you who remember my experiment of moving the mvb bulb to the other end because they were piling I to the pot instead of the big humid hide. Well the eventually started using the big humid hide....well good grief they just follow the mvb lol)

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Well Watson and Freckles are. Beans is in the big humid hide, sleeping.

 

[Elohi]

Breakfast and "rain".
The trio associate rain with food. They used to retreat into their shell when I would spray them and the enclosure down but now they start running around like they are excited and run in and out of the food dish. It rains several times a day but I feed them 1-2 times a day depending on how much they eat.

 

[Tom]

What is their typical diet? How much time do they spend outside each day?

A 100 watt MVB just 12" away is an awful lot of desiccating heat. Right now this is the front runner in my list of contributing factors.

But lets keep this in perspective. This is very mild pyramiding, and with your care routine they are otherwise very healthy looking.

 

[Elohi]

What is their typical diet? How much time do they spend outside each day?

A 100 watt MVB just 12" away is an awful lot of desiccating heat. Right now this is the front runner in my list of contributing factors.

But lets keep this in perspective. This is very mild pyramiding, and with your care routine they are otherwise very healthy looking.

They eat dandelion, sow thistle, endive, baby spring mix with the spinach removed (they won't eat it), bok choy, mustard greens, radicchio, wheat grass clippings, a little clover, mazuri, zoomed grassland pellets. Actually freckles will not eat mazuri or grassland pellets. She will only eat leafy greens. Dandelion and sow thistle are their favorites it seems. I also feed edible flowers occasionally that I get at a grocery store. I've tried carrot tops, chard, various kale and they just pick at those.

They haven't been outside a lot this winter because our winter has been abnormally cold. They've been out twice this last week though. They soaked and roams in the grass. I noticed that their carapace temps were much higher outside, than inside their enclosure. 105 at one point, which freaked me out. It wasn't hot outside by any stretch of the imagination. I believe it was mid 80's Very windy so it was comfortable. I made sure they had shade, water, and dandelion to much on while we were outside but they just watered around most of the time we were out. I temp check the ground on questionable days. I was hoping to take them out today but it's Foggy and dreary. -sigh-





Elohi(Earth)[TURTLE]

 

[julietteq]

will raising it work if I foil the gap between the dome and the plexiglas?

This will not work unless you make the "hole" where the lights shine through wider as well. The idea is to make the area the lights cover bigger. How about you divide your enclosure in 2 sections. One section can be closed and you can use a ceramic heater to heat up the enclosure and keep it nice and moist. the other part will be open, allowing you to raise the lights easily.

 

[Elohi]

Oh and I just temp checked the river rocks that are directly under the mvb and they are 101F. The hottest I've temp'd them is 103. I'm going to be moving the water dish directly under the mvb today to lessen the likelihood for any of them to lay directly under the bulb, which I've never actually observed them do.
This is where the mvb was. Mostly over the humid hide. They couldn't get directly under the mvb . I thought this would keep the humid hide nice and warm and keep them out from any direct spot heating. The rock I put there thinking they may lay on it for warmth but they never used it....until now that the CHE is over this area. It's 60watts.


This is looking directly down onto the area where the mvb is currently since moving the domes. Those are the river rocks I referred to above. I plan to move that dish right directly under the bulb today.



Elohi(Earth)[TURTLE]