Pyramiding? What am I doing wrong?

[pauly26]

I've had these 2 redfoots for around a year now.

They both seem to show pyramiding and I'm not sure what I need to do differently.

The humidity is usually around 96% but ranges from 85 to 99%. The ambient temperature ranges from 75 to 85F. They are a fed a balance of spring mix and differemt fruits, papaya currently. Probably works out to be 50% balance of each. There is a UVB fluorescent tube above the enclosure. I sprinkle Repashy a couple of times a week on the food. I wet their shells everyday. There is cuddle bone in there too.

Should I try something different or is this just one of those unexplainable things?

Thanks!




Note: (I understand it is not ideal to keep 2 together. But there has been zero aggression and I am fully prepared to separate when/if necessary)

 

[Minority2]

Can you show a detailed picture of the entire enclosures so that members can see what type of setup you're working with?

 

[Toddrickfl1]

Honestly they look pretty good to me. Can you take a profile picture?

 

[pauly26]

 

[Toddrickfl1]

View attachment 305328View attachment 305329View attachment 305330View attachment 305331

Ok definitely see it in the first one, the second one is very minimal. Do you have any hot spots in your enclosure? What are you using for heat?

 

[pauly26]

Ok definitely see it in the first one, the second one is very minimal. Do you have any hot spots in your enclosure? What are you using for heat?

During the winter I am using a ceramic heat bulb. During the warmer months the temp stays between 75 and 85 in this spot of my house so I have not provided one. Could that be a cause?

 

[Tom]

There is mounting evidence that indoor UV tubes are causing the new growth in the scute margins to dry out excessively and causing pyramiding. I've stopped using indoor UV, and the pyramiding stopped at the same time. LEDs do not cause this problem. Radiant heat panels are a good way to heat when needed, without hot spots.Torts can get their D3 from the diet, and also form limited access to sunshine in outdoor enclosures, weather permitting.

There has been aggression, you just don't recognize it. I have long believed that stress is a factor in pyramiding. Living as a pair in a small enclosure (your enclosure is too small) is very stressful on both of them, even if they aren't currently biting and ramming. They do not want to share space.

 

[Minority2]

There is mounting evidence that indoor UV tubes are causing the new growth in the scute margins to dry out excessively and causing pyramiding. I've stopped using indoor UV, and the pyramiding stopped at the same time. LEDs do not cause this problem. Radiant heat panels are a good way to heat when needed, without hot spots.Torts can get their D3 from the diet, and also form limited access to sunshine in outdoor enclosures, weather permitting.

There has been aggression, you just don't recognize it. I have long believed that stress is a factor in pyramiding. Living as a pair in a small enclosure (your enclosure is too small) is very stressful on both of them, even if they aren't currently biting and ramming. They do not want to share space.

Is there going to be a study done regarding the UV florescent tube bulbs or is there already one in the forums that I am not aware of?

 

[Tom]

Is there going to be a study done regarding the UV florescent tube bulbs or is there already one in the forums that I am not aware of?

Its something I've been talking about with other members privately for months. Not sure if its been mentioned publicly or not. I've siad it a few times now.

I'm not planning a study. We've been scratching our heads trying to figure out why some tortoises pyramid despite perfect conditions, and the UVA/UVB thing was explained to me. The explanation lined up perfectly with what I'd been observing with my own babies, so I turned them off. Pyramiding stopped, and has not happened in hatchings raised without indoor UVB. I've added calcium with D3 to their diets a couple of times a week, plus Mazuri which has D3 in it, plus they get sunned in outdoor tubs occasionally.

I think indoor UV is fine for adults, and I think it is hard to avoid using it in some cases where people live in cold climates and have snow or cold temps for half the year.

 

[pauly26]

Thanks for the feedback. It is challenging to sort out the fact from opinion on keeping tortoises.

Enclosure - I will separate these 2. Everything I have read on size is as big as you can. I plan to move to an outdoor enclosure (in central MS) when they are around 5". So until then how much floor space should each get?

Light - this one has puzzled me. These guys generally hide anyway so I get the thought process that they do not receive tremendous benefit from UVB. So should I just remove the UVB all together and go normal lightning?

Heat - I will look into the radiant heat panel. Should this be on year round?

 

[Toddrickfl1]

Thanks for the feedback. It is challenging to sort out the fact from opinion on keeping tortoises.

Enclosure - I will separate these 2. Everything I have read on size is as big as you can. I plan to move to an outdoor enclosure (in central MS) when they are around 5". So until then how much floor space should each get?

Light - this one has puzzled me. These guys generally hide anyway so I get the thought process that they do not receive tremendous benefit from UVB. So should I just remove the UVB all together and go normal lightning?

Heat - I will look into the radiant heat panel. Should this be on year round?

I would remove the uvb and just go to LED lighting. Redfoots can go a long time without it. See what the new growth that starts coming in looks like and then go from there. I use radiant heat panels. I keep them on with a thermostat set at 84 year round.

 

[pauly26]

I would remove the uvb and just go to LED lighting. Redfoots can go a long time without it. See what the new growth that starts coming in looks like and then go from there. I use radiant heat panels. I keep them on with a thermostat set at 84 year round.

I'm frustrated they are pyramiding
?. And its interesting how one is pyramiding much more pronounced then the other, both in the same environment.

But I will try to adjust and correct it.

What radiant panel do you use?

 

[Toddrickfl1]

I'm frustrated they are pyramiding
?. And its interesting how one is pyramiding much more pronounced then the other, both in the same environment.

But I will try to adjust and correct it.

What radiant panel do you use?

Reptile basics, I got it from @Kapidolo Farms

 

[Tom]

Thanks for the feedback. It is challenging to sort out the fact from opinion on keeping tortoises.

Enclosure - I will separate these 2. Everything I have read on size is as big as you can. I plan to move to an outdoor enclosure (in central MS) when they are around 5". So until then how much floor space should each get?

Light - this one has puzzled me. These guys generally hide anyway so I get the thought process that they do not receive tremendous benefit from UVB. So should I just remove the UVB all together and go normal lightning?

Heat - I will look into the radiant heat panel. Should this be on year round?

Its not just fact vs. opinion, its also that new info is constantly being learned, tested, and put into practice. That is why a forum like this is so much better than a book, or an expert that isn't keeping up with new developments.

At 5" I would recommend 4x8' They are just going to keep growing, so getting something smaller means you'll have to do it all over again in a few months.

I don't keep RFs, but I read the posts from guys like Toddrickfl1 and Zeropilot who have great success with them. Seems to me that a RHP set on a thermostat and some LED lighting, is the way to go.

RFs get D3 in their diet too.

 

[Tom]

Another trick to stop pyramiding os to spray water on the carapace several times per day. Use RO, distilled, or collected rainwater for this purpose to avoid hard water stains. Be careful to not make the substrate too wet all the time, as this could cause some shell fungus in a RF.

 

[turtlesteve]

It is hard to see an obvious reason why these two are pyramiding. Your enclosure looks OK (although small) and humidity levels are fine. If the cage is open on top (as in your first picture) I would cover it, either all day or at night only.

I personally have not been able to see evidence that artificial UV (fluorescent lights) have a role in pyramiding one way or the other, but I’m open to the possibility. I do think redfoots should have UVB, and do not believe speculation that they don’t get it in the wild. If you do opt to remove the lights, make sure you get the tortoises in natural sunlight on occasion.

Where did you get them as hatchlings? It is much harder to correct pyramiding than to prevent it, so if they were starting to pyramid when you got them, it could explain what is going on here.

 

[pauly26]

It is hard to see an obvious reason why these two are pyramiding. Your enclosure looks OK (although small) and humidity levels are fine. If the cage is open on top (as in your first picture) I would cover it, either all day or at night only.

I personally have not been able to see evidence that artificial UV (fluorescent lights) have a role in pyramiding one way or the other, but I’m open to the possibility. I do think redfoots should have UVB, and do not believe speculation that they don’t get it in the wild. If you do opt to remove the lights, make sure you get the tortoises in natural sunlight on occasion.

Where did you get them as hatchlings? It is much harder to correct pyramiding than to prevent it, so if they were starting to pyramid when you got them, it could explain what is going on here.

It is mostly covered other than a cut out for the light.

I got them from Redfoot ranch out Florida. They didn't show any signs of pyramiding when I got them. (That I could tell)

 

[1wildtiger]

Its something I've been talking about with other members privately for months. Not sure if its been mentioned publicly or not. I've siad it a few times now.

I'm not planning a study. We've been scratching our heads trying to figure out why some tortoises pyramid despite perfect conditions, and the UVA/UVB thing was explained to me. The explanation lined up perfectly with what I'd been observing with my own babies, so I turned them off. Pyramiding stopped, and has not happened in hatchings raised without indoor UVB. I've added calcium with D3 to their diets a couple of times a week, plus Mazuri which has D3 in it, plus they get sunned in outdoor tubs occasionally.

I think indoor UV is fine for adults, and I think it is hard to avoid using it in some cases where people live in cold climates and have snow or cold temps for half the year.

Hi Tom! I was following the conversation here and now I am confused. I am using the T5 10.0 UVB light in my enclosure for my 1 year old eastern Hermann's. I had read on here that is what I should be using. Is that not the case anymore? I am still working on getting a bigger home for them and separating them. I got the 65 watt flood lights from Amazon that Mark had posted to replace the spot light. What should I be doing? If you recall, I am battling with new pyramiding as well. Thanks!!?

 

[pauly26]

I built an outdoor table (approx 7'x4') for my tortoises this weekend. Basically an elevated garden table. I plan to grow some safe plants soon from seeds. Its on my covered patio so they will get some some sun this way and no more uvb bulb. Hoping this halts the pyramiding and makes it less apparent as they grow. ?