Project pet AD, the good&bAD- does anyone wish to help/contribute?

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hey folks! Hope all are well😊bit of a random one and this might seem stupid to ask about but I’m curious on your guys input.

My moms partner has a red foot we’re upgrading(all is going good and I keep people updated on her upgrade thread) it’s sparked a huge interest in tortoise care for me, I’m currently only really familiar with red foot care but I’m getting into learning more about different species needs, I’d really love to have my own! but even if I never do, I find it all super interesting, be nice to think I could put everything I’ve learnt on here to good use one day, I love coming on this forum in my spare time to learn stuff!

Anyway, idk why I do this to myself, cause it’s basically torture🥲but does anyone else ever just peruse re home sites to see what’s out there? Lol, like I say I really don’t know why I do it considering I know it’s likely going to be a horror show out there and mess with my head, to no surprise when looking last night there was no end to tiny set ups, tortoise kept and being sold in pairs, beech chip bedding, pellet bedding, colourful pellet food, sawdust, no uv, red bulbs, pyramiding, overgrown beaks, someone selling a ‘herman red foot’🥲you name it, it was there😭

I’ve decided to start reaching out to some these people directly after some encouragement from other members😊I wished I’d done that any time I’ve looked at bad ads, but I’ve always had this fear of them removing the listing altogether😣


There were a few in particular that really stood out and pulled at my heart strings the other night.. and it got me thinking.. I wonder if there’s anyway to use all these never ending ads as a learning opportunity, going back I considered creating a tiktok account or something featuring different pet ads, at the time my focus was going to be hamsters and small rodents cause I’d consider myself much more knowledgable on their care, I’m still out of my depth when it comes to reptile care really, I wanted the account to feature both good and bad ads, explaining what’s good about them, why it’s good and explaining why the bad stuff is bad, then ending each segment with the most cost effective way to temporarily make the enclosure more comfortable for the animal until an appropriate home is found, I’ve seen a few small animal channels create similar content but there’s not a lot actually out there with this kind of format, especially for tortoise, so I felt like maybe there’s a gap here that could actually be helpful?

My hope with it all is, for not only the people posting the ads themselves to see it and hopefully take the information in, but for the countless people out there keeping their animals in similar set ups thinking it’s the norm(mostly thanks to the dodgy pet industry&questionable breeders)to hopefully see the content and better their care, many of these tort owners that come to this forum after having spent a huge amount in a pet store only to find out they’ve been advised incorrectly, or their tortoise is starting to become poorly due to improper care☹️I think it would be so handy for people to visually see common mistakes that are made.

It goes without saying there’s no end to animals being kept in bad conditions, sometimes through no ill will of the owner, and I know there’s countless channels and accounts dedicated to reptile/small animal care that could do a better job than I ever could, I just personally thought the format of something like this could be kind of interesting? there would always be different new ads to go through and I think seeing so many different set ups could make good viewing instead of the usual relay of the same information a lot of channels have? I certainly find looking at different set ups interesting but maybe that’s just me🥲it’d be a nice opportunity for people to see different examples of good set ups too!


As I’ve said I’m still of out of my depth when it comes to reptile care, so if I were to try and do something like this Id love to be able to direct people to this forum for the specific information on the care of the type of tortoise they have(I genuinely believe every tortoise owner should check this forum out)

However I do at this stage feel I’ve learnt enough on here from you guys to spot the major red flags that I think are important to address when it comes to their care, and had no idea just how rampant the problems were until joining the forum! like dangerous substrate, the danger of cohabitation, having the right uv&diet, why the sizing of an enclosure is important. I’d definitely have to leave some specifics as I’m still very much learning, for which it’d be great to direct people here.

I almost wish I could see content like this from an experienced member cause I’d find it entertaining to watch and they’d do a much better job😂but I’m potentially up for the challenge!🥲

I’d definitely want to keep things as chill and respectful as possible no matter the condition of the set up, last thing I’d wanna do is offend someone or risk them taking the ad down altogether so the tort can’t get a better home, I wouldn’t want it to feel like a public attack, though there are undoubtedly some that make you want to😣I probably wouldn’t even show my face, it could just be a voice over


Would anyone be interested, if I were to post some pics of the ads on here first, coming up ways to advise the owner on temporarily making things better?(it would just be pictures of the setup and/or the description they’ve put, no names or anything)The person themselves might not see it, but it would give the opportunity for lots of creative ideas to come together, maybe inspiring those with similar out dated set ups that often find themselves here panicking they’ve brought the wrong stuff, it would also be nice to think it could prevent the tortoise in the ads themselves being housed inappropriately by future prospective owners🙂

Ultimately I suppose all you can hope is, even if one need is still refused to be met, like enclosure sizing(biggest issue I came across), that at the very least, hazardous things can be removed and appropriate substrate added.

You could also add ones from wherever you’re from!(including the red flags you personally see in them for me to include in the post)Any of the ones I post, I’d messages the ops myself, but I’d encourage others to do the same for the ones they might add.


I’ve seen how dedicated lots of experienced members are here when giving advice, I see many new members make threads daily repeating some of these common mistakes(again, most the time through no ill intentions)and how wonderful everyone is to take the time to go in depth, kindly and respectfully as possible, no matter the situation, over and over on the care for the specific needs of each tortoise, answering the same questions, sometimes multiple times a day, for each new member here willing to learn! It’s genuinely heartwarming🥰

So I figured maybe some of you might enjoy contributing to this possible project?

It wouldn’t have to be an in depth answer on each tortoises care because I could link the care sheets to each of the species featured, it would just need to be some quick suggestions on how you’d immediately improve the enclosures, or where appropriate, a new cost effective temporary set up is needed, based on some pictures.

I know the tortoise lover in all of us for the most part, will want to suggest completely new enclosures right away, but I do think it’s important to bare in mind with these listings, most of the current owners that are already looking to re home, don’t want to spend the money/time on a completely new set up and some don’t have the space. I think it’ll be best to suggest the most cost effective ways possible, where possible, to help the tortoise feel more comfortable for the time being in their set ups.


I do lastly want to add I think it’s important, no matter how dire some of the set ups may appear, that everyone would need to stay as kind and respectful as possible because the ultimate goal here is to encourage owners to become apart of this community on the forum, I wouldn’t want them to feel like there’s lots of hostility before they potentially sign up.



What are peoples opinions in trying something like this? Could it back fire and be counterproductive? As in just offend the owners? Or put people off posting ads for animals that desperately deserve a new home?? I like to think it could encourage them to at least include the right information for future owners but I’m curious if people think this is a good idea?😕
If so please do feel free to tag members in this thread who you think might enjoy contributing towards this project!


Maybe I’m not the right person for the job😂but bad pet ads have always really bothered me! Yet I can’t look away🥲perhaps it’s me secretly wanting my own tort🤣

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hi folks! Not sure if this post wasn’t the most popular idea or fell under the radar🥲I’m guessing potentially the former😂
But I’m commenting in the hopes of more members seeing in the event it got buried under other threads😊

I think moving forward, the goal for this project would be to stick with just the forum for now instead of posting on other platforms, I figured this might me a good place to direct new members if they seem confused on why their set up is incorrect, they’ll be able to visually see the most common mistakes people make, why they’re bad and how to improve.
It would also be a good place to post listings made by questionable breeders, showing the types to avoid and why🙂

I’m hoping it’ll also encourage people to reach out to these listings themselves, providing owners with a link to the forum😊

@wellington @SinLA and @COmtnLady seemed down for the idea so far?🙂

 

[SinLA]

I'm always up for it, but the listings I see are usually people selling OFF their pets so they don't really care. Some of them likely are breeders, but I think mostly they care for money. And I have no idea who is spending $200-500 on a sulcata that looks like a hand grenade. I have even seen some of these for thousands. I can't imagine they actually sell, so I don't really know what happens. But I say - it never hurts to try!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I'm always up for it, but the listings I see are usually people selling OFF their pets so they don't really care. Some of them likely are breeders, but I think mostly they care for money. And I have no idea who is spending $200-500 on a sulcata that looks like a hand grenade. I have even seen some of these for thousands. I can't imagine they actually sell, so I don't really know what happens. But I say - it never hurts to try!

Yeah there’s definitely a lot who simply don’t care and will never check the forum😞but it’s some what of a comfort to think we could at least use the poor tortoises set up as a learning curve for others to do better🤞🏻
I’ve spoke to a few people since messaging the listings who were actually quite open and understanding which is always refreshing! I think when you approach a certain way, they’re happy to listen, some won’t and never will lol, but those who have only ever meant well are definitely open to doing better😁
For the ones I have ready to post, I have updates for most of them so a few have closure and a happier ending😊

 

[COmtnLady]

While putting the listings here is decidedly "preaching to the choir", the more light that is shined on some of this crummy stuff, the more likely something can be done.

Despite how difficult and depressing the actions of other humans can be to deal with, its the animal's welfare that is more important. I'm not sure we can make an impact, but not doing anything means there would definitely not be a good outcome.


***
Does anyone have an update on that poor tortoise from a couple weeks ago that had been so mistreated that you could see its shell flex when it breathed?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

While putting the listings here is decidedly "preaching to the choir", the more light that is shined on some of this crummy stuff, the more likely something can be done.

Despite how difficult and depressing the actions of other humans can be to deal with, its the animal's welfare that is more important. I'm not sure we can make an impact, but not doing anything means there would definitely not be a good outcome.


***
Does anyone have an update on that poor tortoise from a couple weeks ago that had been so mistreated that you could see its shell flex when it breathed?

I completely agree with you! I’ve been very hesitant about this project for fear of offending well meaning owners, but I’ve remained completely kind and respectful towards anyone I’ve messaged, we’ve all made mistakes in pet care, I’ll start posting some today and again will remain completely neutral(aside from the ones that gave zero sh*ts about their welfare) there were ones that were very grateful, updated their ads and they ended up going to a better home, so that’ll be nice to show you guys😊unfortunately there are some bad ones with no closure😞but their unfortunate care can hopefully help others learn better❤️

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Thought I’d get the ball rolling with these, I’m noting down the red flags I saw personally, the good things if any, and things I’m unsure of, that would be great to have input on. I’m still very much learning and lack some of the hands on experience lots of members have on here.

All the ops of the listings have been contacted directly(though unfortunately some disappeared too quick for me to contact😣)I’d encourage everyone to do the same with ones you may find. Feel free to add them here, including the red flags you personally see.

Each one doesn’t need to be super in depth as I’ve already linked the owners to the appropriate care sheets on the forum(and suggested to pass onto future owners)just some brief thoughts you’d like to add to help the tortoise feel more comfortable and those in similar set ups.

Feel free to respond to as many as you like, but if you feel more confident giving advice on one listing, pick and choose😊just be sure to reply to that specific one so it’s easier to keep track on which one you’re giving the advice to👍🏻

These will just be kept to this thread for now. Thank you and happy posting!🙂

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

First up we have this little horsefield tortoise

Red flags I’ve mentioned to the owner:

His beak appears overgrown, however according to the owners response it looks that way due to previous injuries caused from being housed with another male, not by them personally.

I originally thought the substrate was beech wood chips, but on closer inspection I don’t think it is, so my bad lol

One of the claws appeared strange but turned out it’s a piece of hay😅so that was my bad too🥲

Red heat bulb that needs switching to a floodlight paired with a che for night heat/to make up heat in cold weather, both on their own thermostat, owner said the tort spends lots of time outside viv so the red bulb is fine, they’ve always had it with no issues🙃

No mention of UV, that needs adding if there is none, they didn’t respond to that.

Dial measuring temp, need a digital combometer ideally to measuring both temp and humidity and the dials can sometimes be inaccurate? they said they had no problem with the gauge but I said I was curious if they have a temp gun or something to double check that, no response.


Ultimately if those changes are made this enclosure can be used as a temporary measure by a new owner, but they need to be made aware they need to upgrade to an ideal minimum space of 8x4 foot asap, or better yet, have a similar space already set up.

The owner told be they feel the size viv is perfect and that they’ve seen plenty in smaller😬

The owner wasn’t very happy to receive my advice unfortunately, despite being respectful about it all☹️however I did jump the gun on a few things like the substrate, claw and beak, so I may have understandably got their back up, they were the first I messaged so lesson learned.


Any thoughts you would add/change about my advice?😊

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Next up we have what appears to be a little Herman

Red flags I’ve mentioned to the owner:

There appears to be some MBD present based on the photos, the pyramiding of their shell is quite severe.

Their beak appears overgrown, could be improper care or lack of something to naturally wear it down, suggested large slate to serve food to help


Suggested they need to find someone with a 8x4 space to appropriately house this guy, with UV, correct heating and so forth.

I did also suggest either they or the new owner try to search for an appropriate vet for a check up, though I did warn them it can be very few and far between when finding one that knows what they are doing when it comes to tortoise treatment, I did highly encourage them to check out the forum and included links.


Owner read message but didn’t respond unfortunately.


Any thoughts you would add/change about my advice?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Next up we have this pair of leopard tortoise

Red flags I’ve mentioned to owner:

They need to be re homed/re housed separately asap

The enclosure is far too small for even one of these guys let alone both

Lack of hides/shade, though that could have just been for the pictures

Green flags:

I can see a thermostat and I’m assuming there’s UV in there


Is there a better substrate than aspen for these guys? What do you keep your leopards on?

Obviously these guys need a bigger enclosure, how big would you recommend they go?

How would you personally get this temporarily fixed for one of them?


Owner read message but didn’t respond unfortunately.

Any other thoughts to add/change about my advice?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Next up we have this horsefield tortoise

Red flags I’ve mentioned to the owner:

The enclosure is far too small for any adult tortoise imo, advised they need to find someone who can provide an appropriate 8x4 space for them to live, or as close to that as possible

To change up the substrate

To have something reliable like a digital thermometer measuring temperatures as I didn’t see anything like that.

I didn’t see any mention of UV and couldn’t see any in pictures, if that’s missing it needs adding asap.


Owner hasn’t read message upon posting this.

Any thoughts to add/ changes to my advice?😊

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Finally for today, we have this pair of young red foots

Red flags I’ve mentioned to the owner:

They need to ideally not be sold as a pair, unless an owner can be found that is willing to have two separate sizeable enclosures, or a large appropriate space available. Whilst I believe juvenile red foots can be kept together? As they mature, the more territorial they can become, especially in this kind of sized set up, I’m sure established groups do fine, but such a big space is needed to make that work, someone like that will be hard to find in the uk, I imagine most who can accommodate already have established groups and aren’t looking to re home. Advised these guys need to be homed separately, to people who can provide a bare minimum of 8x4, though ideally much larger is needed for a red foot.

They need appropriate substrate, not coco fibre carpet, recommend orchid bark listed for reptiles, as garden sorts can have pesticides.

A new terracotta dish would be best to be added as a water dish, to sit flush with the substrate, the current one could be a hazard if one were to flip in there.

The pellet food looks a bit questionable


Green flags:

They do both appear in decent condition with little to no pyramiding from what I can make out on the photos, so despite the coco carpet, humidity must not be too bad


The owner thanked me for the advice, and when I went back to the ad they updated it to say the viv isn’t included, so I’m hoping that means they’re selling separately now😁

Any thoughts to add/things you’d change about my advice?😊

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I have plenty more to add, but I’ll leave it there for today as to not overwhelm the thread, I really hope this can be a helpful tool for future/present owners🥰

 

[Ink]

Maybe ask them to give the tortoise forum website information to whomever they sell too?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Maybe ask them to give the tortoise forum website information to whomever they sell too?

I added that on all the messages too with the appropriate links to pass on😊also let them know there’s an adoption section if they were interested

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

First up we have this little horsefield tortoise

Red flags I’ve mentioned to the owner:

His beak appears overgrown, however according to the owners response it looks that way due to previous injuries caused from being housed with another male, not by them personally.

I originally thought the substrate was beech wood chips, but on closer inspection I don’t think it is, so my bad lol

One of the claws appeared strange but turned out it’s a piece of hay😅so that was my bad too🥲

Red heat bulb that needs switching to a floodlight paired with a che for night heat/to make up heat in cold weather, both on their own thermostat, owner said the tort spends lots of time outside viv so the red bulb is fine, they’ve always had it with no issues🙃

No mention of UV, that needs adding if there is none, they didn’t respond to that.

Dial measuring temp, need a digital combometer ideally to measuring both temp and humidity and the dials can sometimes be inaccurate? they said they had no problem with the gauge but I said I was curious if they have a temp gun or something to double check that, no response.


Ultimately if those changes are made this enclosure can be used as a temporary measure by a new owner, but they need to be made aware they need to upgrade to an ideal minimum space of 8x4 foot asap, or better yet, have a similar space already set up.

The owner told be they feel the size viv is perfect and that they’ve seen plenty in smaller😬

The owner wasn’t very happy to receive my advice unfortunately, despite being respectful about it all☹️however I did jump the gun on a few things like the substrate, claw and beak, so I may have understandably got their back up, they were the first I messaged so lesson learned.


Any thoughts you would add/change about my advice?😊

I think, you should focus on "life-saving" points with such ads. 4x2 viv is certainly small, but it's not a shoe box. Replacing it is expensive and requires labour (you know it from your own experience). It's very unlikely that someone who sell a tortoise "due to lack of time" and have a newborn (babies are more expensive than tortoises) will invest money in the new enclosure.

Gauge thermometers/hygrometers are inaccurate but usually the least of the concerns.

However, when they say "outside the viv", I'm afraid that means free roaming, not a large fenced yard. This should be stopped if they plan to sell live tortoise.

And concerns about red bulb and lack of UVB lamp are perfectly valid. I would offer some sunbathing (if weather allows) and a floodlight. I suppose that it's getting warmer now and night heat is redundant for an adult Russian.

There is no water dish in the enclosure - could be fixed easily and cheap. Just with a plastic plate from Ikea.

While it will be a no near perfect setup, this should help tortoise to stay alive until it finds a better home.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I think, you should focus on "life-saving" points with such ads. 4x2 viv is certainly small, but it's not a shoe box. Replacing it is expensive and requires labour (you know it from your own experience). It's very unlikely that someone who sell a tortoise "due to lack of time" and have a newborn (babies are more expensive than tortoises) will invest money in the new enclosure.

Gauge thermometers/hygrometers are inaccurate but usually the least of the concerns.

However, when they say "outside the viv", I'm afraid that means free roaming, not a large fenced yard. This should be stopped if they plan to sell live tortoise.

And concerns about red bulb and lack of UVB lamp are perfectly valid. I would offer some sunbathing (if weather allows) and a floodlight. I suppose that it's getting warmer now and night heat is redundant for an adult Russian.

There is no water dish in the enclosure - could be fixed easily and cheap. Just with a plastic plate from Ikea.

While it will be a no near perfect setup, this should help tortoise to stay alive until it finds a better home.

Yeah I agree, I learnt a lot from this one as it was my first, the more I did the more I realised I needed to focus on the most important points and let them discover the rest.
I did say in my message to let the owner know to upgrade though, didn’t want for them to worry about that as they are looking to rehome, just made suggestions they could include in their current one like the lighting to make tort more comfortable, I think I did offend them unfortunately, though I was perfectly kind, there’s parts I definitely should’ve worded better, but hopefully they’ll check out the links I sent😊
I did apologise too for any offence I caused and for jumping the gun on some stuff

 

[Maggie3fan]

My sister has been involved in turtle and tortoise rescue...breeding and keeping for close to 40 years now I think, and until recently I operated a small special needs turtle and tortoise rescue and have chelonia of my own. Both of us have been involved with TFO since 2008...I tell you this so you understand while I am no expert, I do have some hands on experience and that's what I use when I offer advice. My own personal opinion, and not in any way my sister's, is that at times we jump on the newbie with questions...lighting? Temps? Substrate? container? Yikes!!! all those questions...but when you are new and several of us jump in with them, it can be a bit threatening and scaring....some newbies leave right away. While I do agree we are here especially for the tortoise, just possibly we need to also learn a better way of treating some scared new person while getting our needed information, that also the care of the keeper is necessary too... Sometimes however the information is flexible...simply put...the recommended space for a redfoot is 8'x4'. Generally speaking...I have a 3 year old Redfoot who lives in a 6'x2.5' greenhouse/tort table inside, but she has a very large outside enclosure. How about posting the how to sticky we have on most species first...then asking after they read it if that might fit for them. Then ask the questions, I'm just saying an idea cuz at times the first person to reply might be a bit aggressive in the questioning...I have myself, truthfully. If several of us jump on the care of said new tortoise that can be threatening as well, I also think you can overload these new people with information and they only retain one or two things. You asked, so I told...I mean no disrespect and other than myself, I point no fingers at any one member.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Yeah I agree, I learnt a lot from this one as it was my first, the more I did the more I realised I needed to focus on the most important points and let them discover the rest.
I did say in my message to let the owner know to upgrade though, didn’t want for them to worry about that as they are looking to rehome, just made suggestions they could include in their current one like the lighting to make tort more comfortable, I think I did offend them unfortunately, though I was perfectly kind, there’s parts I definitely should’ve worded better, but hopefully they’ll check out the links I sent😊
I did apologise too for any offence I caused and for jumping the gun on some stuff

I think, passing a link to the care sheet or just mentioning TFO will be the best. They seem to care about their tort, so are probably interested in him having a better care.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

My sister has been involved in turtle and tortoise rescue...breeding and keeping for close to 40 years now I think, and until recently I operated a small special needs turtle and tortoise rescue and have chelonia of my own. Both of us have been involved with TFO since 2008...I tell you this so you understand while I am no expert, I do have some hands on experience and that's what I use when I offer advice. My own personal opinion, and not in any way my sister's, is that at times we jump on the newbie with questions...lighting? Temps? Substrate? container? Yikes!!! all those questions...but when you are new and several of us jump in with them, it can be a bit threatening and scaring....some newbies leave right away. While I do agree we are here especially for the tortoise, just possibly we need to also learn a better way of treating some scared new person while getting our needed information, that also the care of the keeper is necessary too... Sometimes however the information is flexible...simply put...the recommended space for a redfoot is 8'x4'. Generally speaking...I have a 3 year old Redfoot who lives in a 6'x2.5' greenhouse/tort table inside, but she has a very large outside enclosure. How about posting the how to sticky we have on most species first...then asking after they read it if that might fit for them. Then ask the questions, I'm just saying an idea cuz at times the first person to reply might be a bit aggressive in the questioning...I have myself, truthfully. If several of us jump on the care of said new tortoise that can be threatening as well, I also think you can overload these new people with information and they only retain one or two things. You asked, so I told...I mean no disrespect and other than myself, I point no fingers at any one member.

You raise some very valid points here, I was very conscious in my messages to keep them as to the point as I possibly could, and let them all know in no way will anyone think bad of them, we all make mistakes.
I am going to be limiting some of the info moving forward though and focusing on the most important pressing points.
With regards to the flexible sizing, I do agree, where I’m from it’s incredibly difficult to find people with 8x4 spaces for indoor vivs, it’s unfortunate but it’s very common here. I made sure I included that on the messages and to go with someone that can offer up the largest space they’re able.
I think I shall take your suggestion moving forward in just giving them the appropriate links, giving them the opportunity to ask questions if they wish, I’ll just add the points on here for other members to learn from perhaps.
I did also add on all the messages, no matter the set up, everyone on here is so kind and means well, the info can be overwhelming but people are there to help break it down should they want to post a quick question themselves.

Thank you very much for your input! It’s been much appreciated!