Possible systemic issue: Liver problems or kidneys - Now, what?

[SArchieIII]

The Vet called me today.
He has seen Archie yesterday (we didn't pay the check-in), I couldn't go as I am myself not well lately, he mentioned that in his opinion, all we have done it is all that we can do at this stage, and there should have been improvement already. It is not the case, therefore he wants me to consider a referral to a higher level specialist at 250KM away from us.
In his opinion, he cares for the tortoises in a wild life park that has reptiles section, he thinks it could be liver problems (he thinks this as main possibility) or Kidneys issues.
Beside all the wheel of emotions I am going through I mainly think about: what would be next?

I need planning and organization to take Archie to the specialist he mentions (Probably Dublin Zoo tortoise specialist), but I think I can do it, but I keep thinking:
- if either issues are too advanced, there will be no positive outcome anyway
- I read a bunch of articles in this forum about possible kidneys issues, and I am thinking that when I got her, she was a tad dry, and flakey shedding skin around her head and neck, and I wonder if I keep the 3 times a day soaks and maintain the proper temperature and huminidity, would that help?
- I am not sure why he leans more on the possible liver issue, but she is strong when walking in the soaking bowl, and super strong in her legs, and neck. she is not swealling, and if it wasn't for her eyes closed, she wouldn't "look sick"... but than again, I have chronic health issue and I never look sick...

The reason why I am writing here, is to ask if you have any advice or suggestion. Is it worthy to put the tortoise through a 500km journey (back and forth) probably without proper conditions for her (I have a wooden box I can organize for her journey, but not ideal for her I think (?) ), to then pay someone who will probably inject her or treat something.
She didn't have blood tests yet, nor scans, therefore I think this might be the next steps...

Would it be stupid to instead, keep her at the right temps and humidity with spraying the enclosure and giving her soak baths as long as it will be needed (in either way it will go :'( ) monitor her in her enclosure and new lights, and wait and see?
She has done 2 poops in 5 days of soaks, and we think she might have eaten a square inch of kale, we decided to take pictures of the leaves now when we put them in and out to compare, since her bite marks are so tiny... but overall, she is not really eating for I would say 4 weeks now...

Any suggestion or advice based on your experience would be massively appreciated.
I dont want to take her anyway, if it will not help her... and if what will help is 3 soaks a day and electrolytes and carrot soaks should be continued until something happens, I will do that (I work from home and I scheduled her needs on my Outlook, so they are happening without fail)... I am not afraid of continuing having this intensive care for as long as it needed...
I remember reading somewhere "Tortoise do anything in their own time, so let them do it" ...and I wonder if it is also related to recovering from bad spells...
I am extremely sad, I very much appreciate your knowledge and advice.

thank you

 

[Yvonne G]

May we please see several pictures of the tortoise and his enclosure? We'll try to help you, if we can.

 

[SArchieIII]

Sure Yvonne, thank you.
She just had her soak and gave us another glorious poop!

Video of her moving around while soaking https://photos.app.goo.gl/fWU163UsfHiGnStq8 (birbs chirping in the video might be loud)


3x2 feet (this is temporary, even the amount of soil is temporary, as we need to find her to attend to her care, I didn't want to put a lot of soil and stress her out digging around to find her.
The black plastic is pond liner bought specifically, not reused (to avoid contaminants etc) it was rinsed before putting it in.

I am sketching a bigger home, and organizing the area where to put her before September. the idea is to keep the temp, the barren look on one side, and plants on the other with a safe walking area where she would not risk falling.

We made the acrylic cover to make sure she is "covered" with minimal airflow, plus T5 Arcadia Desert light UVB screwed in it. On the other side there is an Exoterra reflector light and a flood light 75W arcadia which brings degrees on her mid-height (I put the sensor mid-height of her floor to shell)

Humidity on the opposite side of basking is fluctuating from 70 to 90%, over 24h
Temp basking 35/36.5 C
Temp opposite side 27 C night 23/24C we place those wollen cover to close the gaps from the top, as there are to small slits below the lid of 1cm each side of the front and back glass.
(I added water, I just put her back and didn't finish changing the water bowl water)


)




Sometimes her eye swell like this but shortly after goes back to normal (2nd photo below)

 

[SArchieIII]

My husband just reminded me that the first couple of months we had Archie, she was releasing white powder alongside poop in her soak, and we thought that could have been calcium/something contained in her pee maybe? As it was released in a different moment than a poo.

 

[SArchieIII]

this is her day one, arrived to us.
I think she looked somewhat dry, what do you think?
You can see those flakes of skin I mentioned above, around her neck/shoulder

 

[Tom]

The Vet called me today.
He has seen Archie yesterday (we didn't pay the check-in), I couldn't go as I am myself not well lately, he mentioned that in his opinion, all we have done it is all that we can do at this stage, and there should have been improvement already. It is not the case, therefore he wants me to consider a referral to a higher level specialist at 250KM away from us.
In his opinion, he cares for the tortoises in a wild life park that has reptiles section, he thinks it could be liver problems (he thinks this as main possibility) or Kidneys issues.
Beside all the wheel of emotions I am going through I mainly think about: what would be next?

I need planning and organization to take Archie to the specialist he mentions (Probably Dublin Zoo tortoise specialist), but I think I can do it, but I keep thinking:
- if either issues are too advanced, there will be no positive outcome anyway
- I read a bunch of articles in this forum about possible kidneys issues, and I am thinking that when I got her, she was a tad dry, and flakey shedding skin around her head and neck, and I wonder if I keep the 3 times a day soaks and maintain the proper temperature and huminidity, would that help?
- I am not sure why he leans more on the possible liver issue, but she is strong when walking in the soaking bowl, and super strong in her legs, and neck. she is not swealling, and if it wasn't for her eyes closed, she wouldn't "look sick"... but than again, I have chronic health issue and I never look sick...

The reason why I am writing here, is to ask if you have any advice or suggestion. Is it worthy to put the tortoise through a 500km journey (back and forth) probably without proper conditions for her (I have a wooden box I can organize for her journey, but not ideal for her I think (?) ), to then pay someone who will probably inject her or treat something.
She didn't have blood tests yet, nor scans, therefore I think this might be the next steps...

Would it be stupid to instead, keep her at the right temps and humidity with spraying the enclosure and giving her soak baths as long as it will be needed (in either way it will go :'( ) monitor her in her enclosure and new lights, and wait and see?
She has done 2 poops in 5 days of soaks, and we think she might have eaten a square inch of kale, we decided to take pictures of the leaves now when we put them in and out to compare, since her bite marks are so tiny... but overall, she is not really eating for I would say 4 weeks now...

Any suggestion or advice based on your experience would be massively appreciated.
I dont want to take her anyway, if it will not help her... and if what will help is 3 soaks a day and electrolytes and carrot soaks should be continued until something happens, I will do that (I work from home and I scheduled her needs on my Outlook, so they are happening without fail)... I am not afraid of continuing having this intensive care for as long as it needed...
I remember reading somewhere "Tortoise do anything in their own time, so let them do it" ...and I wonder if it is also related to recovering from bad spells...
I am extremely sad, I very much appreciate your knowledge and advice.

thank you

So many things...
1. Soil should never be used as substrate. Its full of all sorts of weird stuff. They make it to grow plants in, not for bedding for small animals. Get rid of the soil ASAP. This might be your problem.
2. They eye problem might be due to too much UV or the wrong bulb. Do you have a UV meter? T5 bulbs are long tubes. They don't screw in. What type of UV bulb are you using? Mercury vapor bulbs are unreliable, cause pyramiding, and should not be used over tortoise in general. CFL types sometimes burn reptile eyes and should also not be used. This might be your problem.
3. One soak a day is plenty.
4. There are four elements to heating and lighting and it looks like you have two going. The basking bulb sounds fine, but the other one is the wrong bulb.
5. Kale is not a good tortoise food. It is okay once in a while, but not as a staple, and I wouldn't feed it to a tortoise that isn't doing well.

There is a heating and lighting breakdown near the bottom of this thread, and also a temperate species care sheet. Everything is spelled out there. Personally, vets don't have a good track record of helping tortoises. I would not drive the 500km. I would fix the problems and see if the tortoise gets better on its own.

 

[SArchieIII]

this is her day one, arrived to us.
I think she looked somewha

So many things...
1. Soil should never be used as substrate. Its full of all sorts of weird stuff. They make it to grow plants in, not for bedding for small animals. Get rid of the soil ASAP. This might be your problem.
2. They eye problem might be due to too much UV or the wrong bulb. Do you have a UV meter? T5 bulbs are long tubes. They don't screw in. What type of UV bulb are you using? Mercury vapor bulbs are unreliable, cause pyramiding, and should not be used over tortoise in general. CFL types sometimes burn reptile eyes and should also not be used. This might be your problem.
3. One soak a day is plenty.
4. There are four elements to heating and lighting and it looks like you have two going. The basking bulb sounds fine, but the other one is the wrong bulb.
5. Kale is not a good tortoise food. It is okay once in a while, but not as a staple, and I wouldn't feed it to a tortoise that isn't doing well.

There is a heating and lighting breakdown near the bottom of this thread, and also a temperate species care sheet. Everything is spelled out there. Personally, vets don't have a good track record of helping tortoises. I would not drive the 500km. I would fix the problems and see if the tortoise gets better on its own.

Thank you, the t5 UV light is indeed a neon tube and it's support needs to be fitted in its provided fittings, these needs a screwing place to be screwed upon, as I was describing the self made cover of acrylic I wanted to make sure it's clear that it didn't prevent me to put the t5 desert neon on, as I made sure, in making it, that there would have been a way to fit the neon correctly.


Concerning the soil,she used to have Coco coir before and some orchid chips at the top. Since we wanted to have the tort under control we used bio soil only (it has added seaweed only).

I will remove it, thank you.

 

[PollyAda]

This sounds like urates. Tortoises often expel urates with their urine - as long as it's white and the consistency is loose/toothpaste like then this is normal. Thick gritty urates is a sign of dehydration.

 

[SArchieIII]

the t5 is there where I highlighted with the wonky arrows.

I put just orchid bark now, will get some top soil soon enough. and will join the bark

 

[Tom]

I put just orchid bark now, will get some top soil soon enough. and will join the bark

Soil should never be used as tortoise substrate. I would not add that. There is no reason to mix different substrates. Orchid bark is the best way to go.

Give this a read and look for the temperate species care sheet at the end. I forgot to link it earlier:

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