Over Abundance of Urates

[Bobo's Dad]

Bobo my 6 month old tortoise has been having trouble passing large balls of Urates. The come out in a huge ball. He gets constipated with them and try's to pass them by straining his body for 4 to 5 mins. Is this normal or should I change some things?

Here is some info:

He eats escarole, turnip greens, kale, romaine, collards, endive on a regular basis. I have been using reptivite on his food twice a week. Tried TnT he won't eat it. I soak him in water 2-3 times a week. His temps are great he eats like a hog but will not use his Flukers calcium drops. Just ignores the food when they are on it.

Opinions? Any help?

Thanks family

---

I have been looking around the web and it said maybe soaking him more. I used to soak him every day maybe I should go back to that. His is just a little guy still.

 

[wellington]

I would cut down on the calcium, once a week is enough. I would start soaking him every day in warm water in the tub. The amount of space in the tub gives more movement and hopefully the movement will help to get his system moving more easily. You don't want him to consistently strain as this could cause a prolapse. Others will be able to give more ideas to help. Good luck.

 

[RedfootsRule]

As a disclaimer, I will add I have not kept, nor know much about russians, but I do know a little about urates...Something that sticks out to me is your diet is made up of large amounts of greens. I'm not sure how much is supposed to be in their diet, but thats regardless to the point...
To much greens CAUSE urates. The greens we feed in captivity have to much salts, and cause an over-abundance of urates. Now, this usually doesn't harm tortoises, but there are the cases where it does. I believe it is a common problem in stars when greens are over-relied on.
I suggest that, to fix this, cut down on the greens and find a substitute. Mazuri would be a fine substitute, or perhaps a mix of hays and more weeds.

 

[Bobo's Dad]

As a disclaimer, I will add I have not kept, nor know much about russians, but I do know a little about urates...Something that sticks out to me is your diet is made up of large amounts of greens. I'm not sure how much is supposed to be in their diet, but thats regardless to the point...
To much greens CAUSE urates. The greens we feed in captivity have to much salts, and cause an over-abundance of urates. Now, this usually doesn't harm tortoises, but there are the cases where it does. I believe it is a common problem in stars when greens are over-relied on.
I suggest that, to fix this, cut down on the greens and find a substitute. Mazuri would be a fine substitute, or perhaps a mix of hays and more weeds.

Thanks Peter I appreciate you info. It does make sense he eats and I feed him a lot of escarole which is very bitter so maybe I need to put that on the moderate list and switch it up mor. I have Mazuri but I have not tried it on him in a few months so I will give that a shot. He's just a little guy and it is hard to get him to eat weeds plus where I live there is nothing but snow. I have some Timothy hay at the house I might mix some in chopped up real good maybe he will bite. Thanks guys.

Any one else wanna chime in?

 

[biochemnerd808]

What a cute little guy! At 6 months, many recommend that you soak your tortoise in warm water for half an hour at least once a day... possibly twice. This would surely help with the urates, as hard urates often indicate dehydration.

@RedfootsRule, I respectfully disagree... Russian tortoises and Greeks really do (and should) rely mostly on greens for their diet. They don't really eat hay, and fruits and veggies are too high in sugar. Mazuri is a little high in protein for an RT or Greek - although I know that some people feed it once a week or so, soaked in water. I personally have never fed Mazuri, and don't plan to.
That said, you may be on to something, maybe it is necessary to feed more wild-grown weeds, and fewer bought greens? Not sure if your climate allows for this at this time of year. Dandelions are starting to grow now, and I'm seeing some plantain weed growing now, too. Those would likely have fewer salts and such in them.

As a disclaimer, I will add I have not kept, nor know much about russians, but I do know a little about urates...Something that sticks out to me is your diet is made up of large amounts of greens. I'm not sure how much is supposed to be in their diet, but thats regardless to the point...
To much greens CAUSE urates. The greens we feed in captivity have to much salts, and cause an over-abundance of urates. Now, this usually doesn't harm tortoises, but there are the cases where it does. I believe it is a common problem in stars when greens are over-relied on.
I suggest that, to fix this, cut down on the greens and find a substitute. Mazuri would be a fine substitute, or perhaps a mix of hays and more weeds.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Peter,

So I (and others) understand you correctly, you are saying too much of store bought "greens" isn't good for the majority of a diet, rather plenty of wild "greens" like weeds are more ideal.

Yes?

 

[Bobo's Dad]

What a cute little guy! At 6 months, many recommend that you soak your tortoise in warm water for half an hour at least once a day... possibly twice. This would surely help with the urates, as hard urates often indicate dehydration.

@RedfootsRule, I respectfully disagree... Russian tortoises and Greeks really do (and should) rely mostly on greens for their diet. They don't really eat hay, and fruits and veggies are too high in sugar. Mazuri is a little high in protein for an RT or Greek - although I know that some people feed it once a week or so, soaked in water. I personally have never fed Mazuri, and don't plan to.
That said, you may be on to something, maybe it is necessary to feed more wild-grown weeds, and fewer bought greens? Not sure if your climate allows for this at this time of year. Dandelions are starting to grow now, and I'm seeing some plantain weed growing now, too. Those would likely have fewer salts and such in them.

As a disclaimer, I will add I have not kept, nor know much about russians, but I do know a little about urates...Something that sticks out to me is your diet is made up of large amounts of greens. I'm not sure how much is supposed to be in their diet, but thats regardless to the point...
To much greens CAUSE urates. The greens we feed in captivity have to much salts, and cause an over-abundance of urates. Now, this usually doesn't harm tortoises, but there are the cases where it does. I believe it is a common problem in stars when greens are over-relied on.
I suggest that, to fix this, cut down on the greens and find a substitute. Mazuri would be a fine substitute, or perhaps a mix of hays and more weeds.

I also noticed his anus is a little pink and stretched looking but it looks like no more big balls of Urates are coming out. when I soaked him tonight just clear liquid. Should I watch that the pink and stretching goes down? I want to avoid a vet bill if possible. Should I cut back on bitter greens? Ie. escarole? What should be a good mixture of greens to offer? Also what do you recommend for calcium and dosage?

Thanks

 

[arotester]

i saw my tort(star) passing hard urates once and i immediately started soaking her every day and included some hay and grasses like alfalfa and bermuda grass in the diet.Also, i started giving her watery fruits once a month to ensure that she is properly hydrated.
So i feel it's hydration and diet that has an effect on urates stone.Again i am nt familiar with russian and if i am wrong plz do correct me.

 

[Spn785]

If you give calcium, once a week should be good. Many places sell seed mixes that are great, so you can grow your own weeds.

 

[biochemnerd808]

collard greens, mustard greens, kale can be mixed in with the foods you already feed. Then once the weather is warmer, you can expand what you feed to edible weeds and raspberry leaves and things on the 'edible' list.

If you give calcium, once a week should be good. Many places sell seed mixes that are great, so you can grow your own weeds.

 

[WillTort2]

Regarding the TNT, try just putting it in a salt or pepper shaker; then sprinkle only a slight amount. As he adjusts to the flavor you can add slightly more. I put just enough on the greens that you can start to see the specks. I do this about 3 times a week.

Good luck, and as mentioned above, increase your soakings.

---

Regarding the TNT, try just putting it in a salt or pepper shaker; then sprinkle only a slight amount. As he adjusts to the flavor you can add slightly more. I put just enough on the greens that you can start to see the specks. I do this about 3 times a week.

Good luck, and as mentioned above, increase your soakings.

 

[Yvonne G]

I don't think that greens are "salty." Here is an excerpt written by a veterinarian in the CTTC newsletter:

"Reptile owners frequently wonder about the "white powder" that is excreted by their pets. The material is uric acid and its salts (urates). Be assured that it is normal for tortoises to pass it.

Uric acid is the end product of protein metabolism. It is cleared from the blood by the kidney into the bladder. Uric acid and urates are relatively insoluble and crystallize into small chunks that are passed with the urine. The amount of urate present in urine varies depending on diet and water intake. Urates are usually white to light yellow in color.

On rare occasions, abnormalities may develop where urate crystals deposit in soft tissues forming the disease known as gout. Another disease is cystic calculi or "bladder stones". These calculi are made up of uric acid salts similar to those that are normally excreted in the urine. In this case the urates build up to form a large solid mass in the bladder. Desert tortoises appear to have a high incidence of calculi. While the exact cause is not known, improper nutrition and limited access to water have both been implicated.

Remember to provide water for them regularly.

Thomas J. Greek, MS, DVM
Greek & Associates Veterinary Hospital, Yorba Linda, CA"

---

This article is fairly recent and talks about hydration rather than what foods the tortoise has eaten:

http://www.cabi.org/isc/FullTextPDF/2009/20093019001.pdf

 

[RedfootsRule]

Haha, I knew everyone would think I'm crazy...Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying; less store-bought greens, more wild weeds ! Show me the Publix in the wild....I know of several keepers that had troubles with stars and urates/stones...They linked it to a green diet (their reasoning is unclear to me). When they switched to different things, it cleared up. I suspect it may only make a difference if the animal has a leaky gut (kind of like oxalates), so unless it causes a problem, you should be fine on a green diet. I just think, in this situation, it would be well worth it to try.
Sorry for suggesting mazuri; like I said, I don't own, nor have ever cared for russians. I just know people have used it with all species, with great success, so it may be worth a shot if the OP can't supply the wild weeds.
And keep in mind guys, the store-bought greens we feed are vastly different from what they eat in the wild. This is why I suggest more wild-grown weeds (or home-grown). So yes, if urates are an issue, I would suggest more weeds.
Protien isn't as big of a problem as people make it out to be though, but thats another discussion....
As others have mentioned, hydration is helpful, although uric acid is rather water insoluble.

---

What a cute little guy! At 6 months, many recommend that you soak your tortoise in warm water for half an hour at least once a day... possibly twice. This would surely help with the urates, as hard urates often indicate dehydration.

@RedfootsRule, I respectfully disagree... Russian tortoises and Greeks really do (and should) rely mostly on greens for their diet. They don't really eat hay, and fruits and veggies are too high in sugar. Mazuri is a little high in protein for an RT or Greek - although I know that some people feed it once a week or so, soaked in water. I personally have never fed Mazuri, and don't plan to.
That said, you may be on to something, maybe it is necessary to feed more wild-grown weeds, and fewer bought greens? Not sure if your climate allows for this at this time of year. Dandelions are starting to grow now, and I'm seeing some plantain weed growing now, too. Those would likely have fewer salts and such in them.

As a disclaimer, I will add I have not kept, nor know much about russians, but I do know a little about urates...Something that sticks out to me is your diet is made up of large amounts of greens. I'm not sure how much is supposed to be in their diet, but thats regardless to the point...
To much greens CAUSE urates. The greens we feed in captivity have to much salts, and cause an over-abundance of urates. Now, this usually doesn't harm tortoises, but there are the cases where it does. I believe it is a common problem in stars when greens are over-relied on.
I suggest that, to fix this, cut down on the greens and find a substitute. Mazuri would be a fine substitute, or perhaps a mix of hays and more weeds.

They mat not eat hay in the WILD, but hay is high fiber, low protein, as is needed. They don't' eat store-bought greens in the wild either, but we feed it . When we can feed everything they eat in the wild, it will be a glorious day; until then, we have to get by on what works .

 

[EricIvins]

Large Urates are the direct result of chronic dehydration and stress to the renal system. Fresh water should be provided at all times. Just because you soak an animal doesn't mean it is keeping it hydrated. In many cases, it is the exact opposite. Diet does contribute, but not enough to really count.

I keep all my Testudo at 60-70% relative humidity, and they do just fine. Hatchlings get even more. Mazuri can and really should be fed every day. It is perfectly fine for Testudo, and I'm raising a bunch of hatchlings on it exclusively with very good results. Correct the hydration issues, and this will all go away.........

 

[RedfootsRule]

Go for the double-W. Water and weeds .

 

[Eloise's mommy]

When I first got Eloise I was only feeding kale, collards and such and she was passing A LOT of urates daily...she is much older than 6 mo. but I decided to try the spring mix and it helped to firm up her poo and now she passes urates less frequently but still regularly.

 

[biochemnerd808]

Thank you for clarifying, RedfootsRule.
I offer timothy hay to my RTs, but they don't touch it. That's what I meant... they just don't eat it. I have offered it to young and old, and they just trample it and ignore it. It can't hurt to offer it, but I doubt it will be eaten.

I whole-heartedly agree with you: more water and more weeds.
(We live in WA, so just to make sure nobody misunderstands me, I said "weedS", not "weed"... no matter how legal it might be in our State now, the torts just don't need any of that...)

Haha, I knew everyone would think I'm crazy...Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying; less store-bought greens, more wild weeds ! Show me the Publix in the wild....I know of several keepers that had troubles with stars and urates/stones...They linked it to a green diet (their reasoning is unclear to me). When they switched to different things, it cleared up. I suspect it may only make a difference if the animal has a leaky gut (kind of like oxalates), so unless it causes a problem, you should be fine on a green diet. I just think, in this situation, it would be well worth it to try.
Sorry for suggesting mazuri; like I said, I don't own, nor have ever cared for russians. I just know people have used it with all species, with great success, so it may be worth a shot if the OP can't supply the wild weeds.
And keep in mind guys, the store-bought greens we feed are vastly different from what they eat in the wild. This is why I suggest more wild-grown weeds (or home-grown). So yes, if urates are an issue, I would suggest more weeds.
Protien isn't as big of a problem as people make it out to be though, but thats another discussion....
As others have mentioned, hydration is helpful, although uric acid is rather water insoluble.

---

What a cute little guy! At 6 months, many recommend that you soak your tortoise in warm water for half an hour at least once a day... possibly twice. This would surely help with the urates, as hard urates often indicate dehydration.

@RedfootsRule, I respectfully disagree... Russian tortoises and Greeks really do (and should) rely mostly on greens for their diet. They don't really eat hay, and fruits and veggies are too high in sugar. Mazuri is a little high in protein for an RT or Greek - although I know that some people feed it once a week or so, soaked in water. I personally have never fed Mazuri, and don't plan to.
That said, you may be on to something, maybe it is necessary to feed more wild-grown weeds, and fewer bought greens? Not sure if your climate allows for this at this time of year. Dandelions are starting to grow now, and I'm seeing some plantain weed growing now, too. Those would likely have fewer salts and such in them.

As a disclaimer, I will add I have not kept, nor know much about russians, but I do know a little about urates...Something that sticks out to me is your diet is made up of large amounts of greens. I'm not sure how much is supposed to be in their diet, but thats regardless to the point...
To much greens CAUSE urates. The greens we feed in captivity have to much salts, and cause an over-abundance of urates. Now, this usually doesn't harm tortoises, but there are the cases where it does. I believe it is a common problem in stars when greens are over-relied on.
I suggest that, to fix this, cut down on the greens and find a substitute. Mazuri would be a fine substitute, or perhaps a mix of hays and more weeds.

They mat not eat hay in the WILD, but hay is high fiber, low protein, as is needed. They don't' eat store-bought greens in the wild either, but we feed it . When we can feed everything they eat in the wild, it will be a glorious day; until then, we have to get by on what works .

---

 

[RedfootsRule]

Chopped hay might work, in that case. Just get it very finely so they don't know they're eating it.

 

[ascott]

Collards
Dandelion greens
Eggplant
Escarole
Green beans
Kale
Okra
Parsley
Parsnips
Peppers
Spinach
Squash, yellow, summer
Swiss chard
Turnip greens
Watercress

Foods like these are high in oxalates (of course these are not all), a tortoise that is fed high oxalate foods and not properly hydrated and properly exercised will ultimately be at higher risk of chunks of urates blocking the body....just as we do, passing of small particles of urates every day every time we urinate---is normal. The problem occurs/increases with dehydration.....

Now, just because these foods are fed to a tort does not automatically mean you are doing something wrong....just remember hydration and exercise plays as much of an equal role in the increase in hazard of chunky urates/impactions.

If you have a tort that is showing signs of stress in passing urates, I would be sure to spray their food offerings with water (soak the food), also soak the tort in a long warm water soak (at least once a day), also you can pre-load a piece of fruit or other food item that your tort can not resist, with a bit of mineral oil---so he can be aided inside with a little more lubricant....also, you can take a bit of mineral oil on a qtip and apply a bit to his red little bottom to help him feel some relief....

Also, if you are able to feed organic foods then the pesticide exposure can help to decrease problems in the digestive system....this you can readily research on your own---torts have poor long term reactions to pesticides/herbicides/fertilizers in food they consume---just as well as we do....