Outdoor time together

[aidenb]

To start off I live in central canada so outdoor time is limited to at most half the year. I have a 1.5 year old hermanns tortoise and am getting a 6 month old sulcata on Monday. As long as both are quarantined and healthy, other than aggression is there any reason they cant share a supervised outdoor pen so long as they are the same size? Obviously once the sulcata grows this can't work but for this summer to get both the most possible sunlight exposure is this ok to allow them to graze and roam where they may potentially be in contact with each other?

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Basically what I'm wanting to do is so long as both are in good health. Rather than doing each getting 3 hours outside in the outdoor pen individually, giving both 6 hours outside together while they're both the same size. Summer is still a month or two away here so plenty of time to quarantine the sulcata.

 

[Tom]

There is no way to know if either are carrying something that could hurt the other without necropsy. Fecal floats and even gastric lavage might not reveal everything. You could pay for hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of vet tests, and still not find everything.

Bottom line is there is still a risk. Due to behavioral differences and disease risk it is best to just not mix them. Just make another enclosure outside. There are many ways to do this economically and easily.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

I wouldn't even let them have access to the same pen at different times.

 

[ascott]

I would start now, since you know there is going to be issue--even if only due to size as you outlined----so I would set up their own space now---it is only going to get more complex as their size changes....

I see no reason to allow them to share/use/occupy the same footprint as one another---each should and need their own space/yard...even small they still need their own space....my opinion shared here.

 

[abclements]

I agree that they should have their own enclosures. As Tom said, diseases and things can get transmitted by sharing the same area, even if it is not at the same time. Also, just a random thought. But after a 6 month quarantine, the sulcata at 1 year old will probably be quite a bit larger than the 2 year old hermanns anyways. Just my speculation, because I don't have either, but just a thought.

 

[aidenb]

Makes sense but the only thing I'm wondering is if we worry about 2 captive bred tortoises spreading fatal disease to each other because they naturally occur in different areas of the world, why do we not worry about placing an african tortoise outside in central canada where it's exposed to foreign pathogens on the ground, in the food it's eating, and contact wild animals (birds, squirrels etc...) and just assume that it will be fine?

 

[jaizei]

Makes sense but the only thing I'm wondering is if we worry about 2 captive bred tortoises spreading fatal disease to each other because they naturally occur in different areas of the world, why do we not worry about placing an african tortoise outside in central canada where it's exposed to foreign pathogens on the ground, in the food it's eating, and contact wild animals (birds, squirrels etc...) and just assume that it will be fine?

You would think.

I do not believe that mixing captive bred animals of known origin is inherently more dangerous than your tortoise mixing with unknown animals outside. Ultimately, this is something you will have to decide for yourself.

 

[Tom]

Makes sense but the only thing I'm wondering is if we worry about 2 captive bred tortoises spreading fatal disease to each other because they naturally occur in different areas of the world, why do we not worry about placing an african tortoise outside in central canada where it's exposed to foreign pathogens on the ground, in the food it's eating, and contact wild animals (birds, squirrels etc...) and just assume that it will be fine?

Fair question.

Many pathogens are fairly host specific. They can be adaptable enough to jump from one tortoise species to another, but probably not from a local lizard to a foreign tortoise. So exposure to local mammals and birds carries less risk than exposure to another tortoise from another continent.

Further, captive bred does not mean they are disease free. Most avid hobbyists or professional breeders have many species, and some cross contamination is unavoidable in any practical sense. No one maintains their animals in hermetically sealed, lab-like, sterile, strictly quarantined conditions. For example at my place: My adults have a large outdoor enclosure. Whenever a female lays eggs she drops some feces down the hole with the eggs, presumably to "seed" the digestive tracts of her offspring when they hatch. In fact I've seen video of a captive CDT coming out of the ground and walking straight over to a pile of poop and start eating. Straight out of the nest and the first thing it did was eat tortoise poop. So even my eggs in my incubator are "contaminated" with the mothers urine and feces. I know of no way to sterilize the eggs, although I think the turtle farmers of America have been working on that in an effort to make under 4" baby turtles legal again. I know of no tortoise breeder that attempts to sterilize their eggs. After hatching, I have 4x8' outdoor pens for babies to get exercise, grazing and sunshine. Sometimes the babies go to the back and to reach them I have to step into the enclosure. This is the same shoe that previously tread through the adult tortoise's enclosure. I don't think my situation is unique and I don't think other tortoise keepers take precautions like changing shoes and clothes in between enclosures or using sanitizing foots baths. So even captive bred babies are potentially exposed to and carrying any number of pathogens.

Lastly, I have never seen or heard of anyone's collection being wiped out because they lived in outdoor pens and had potential exposure to local fauna. If it has happened, I haven't seen or heard or it after more than three decades in the reptile community. By contrast, I HAVE heard of entire collections being wiped out by contact with other tortoises and their diseases. It is pretty common for tortoise keepers in Asian countries to mix species and show pictures of it. You can find many examples here on the forum. I cannot even count the number of PMs I get from these people asking why their very expensive captive bred tortoise are sick and or dead. It happens all the time. Sometimes I can't figure out the cause because everything seems spot on as far as diet, temps, lighting, etc. When I ask for a pic or two, I invariably get a pic of two, three or four different species all living together. Now it may be coincidence. I did not fly to the country in question and run necropsies on all the tortoises involved and then DNA sequence any found pathogens to prove without a doubt which pathogen came from which tortoise and went to which other tortoise, but at some point after seeing it time and time again, even a scientist has to admit that there is a greater probability than just random chance.

There is no practical way to eliminate 100% of any chance of any disease exposure to a pet tortoise. But there are some things that are more risky than others. Putting your tortoise in an outdoor enclosure where birds might poop or squirrels might trod, is not very risky in my practical experience. I can't cite one case where this has been a problem. On the other hand, I've seen lots of examples where mixing tortoise species from different parts of the world caused tortoises to get sick and or die. The risk of infection from mixing species is too high for me to accept it. My experience has shown me this time and time again. Housing tortoises outside in foreign countries, but away from other tortoise species has proven to not be risky in my experience.