Outdoor Enclosure for Rescued Sulcata - Feedback please!

[tortaunt]

Hey ther folks-

Some of you may remember that a few weeks I posted on another thread about rescuing a sulcata from my sister's house. Well, Tortilla is here and I need some advice on his outdoor enclosure, which is his only one as we live in SoCal.

1) Is my substrate OK? I purchased Eco-Earth bricks, wet them and then mixed 'em 50/50 with play sand but it seems wet even days later. I'm wondering if the consistency is right. Also, it seems to be sticking to Tortilla and I have found him on his back already once.

2) His escape from winter, if needed, and sleeping area is meant to the "house" part that you see both open and closed. I would like to put a heat pad in there to maintain the appropriate temp but have read here that might not be good for him since he's so little. I'm unsure what else to do though since we certainly can't fit a light in there.

3) Any other feedback?

Thanks in advance!

Courtney

Here are the pics:

http://picasaweb.google.com/consultgal/TortillaHouse?feat=directlink

 

[Maggie Cummings]

He looks too small to me to live outside. With the way the temp drops at night I personally would bring him in...

 

[tortaunt]

I appreciate that feedback but I have no room for him inside. Unless he goes back into the dinky little glass tank just for overnight (that's what I'm doing now until we can set up a heating solution). However, I have to imagine that if we can adequately warm up that little house part, then there is no reason he would need to come in. What am I missing?

 

[katesgoey]

I don't own Sulcata, but Maggie does. If you live in a part of SoCal where night time temps don't drop that low, look through the threads of Sulcata Central on this forum, you may find other Sulcata owners who have successfully heated an outdoor enclosure for theirs. You have asked questions but gave restrictions in why you couldn't follow Maggie's suggestions, so it might help if you provided the age/size of your Sulcata and the winter temps in your area (highs and lows) in order to provide you more specific information in caring for your Sulcata. You may also find helpful information at www.africantortoise.com or www.sulcatastation.com (I think its .com, but if not, try .org). I hope that you will consider the suggestions provided here and on those sites if your Sulcata is young and as small as it appears. Finding him/her on the back is dangerous and you may consider whether rocks or something else is causing that so you can remove or move it. Let us know if you find a setup that will help you provide the best situation for him/her.

 

[tortaunt]

Hello-

I have been to all of the sites you mention and many more! I have been researching nothing but suclata for days on end. Part of the problem is that I have done so much research and there is a lot of conflicting information out there, which is why I came here to discuss my exact questions and get help from some experts. I'm not saying I'm not willing to follow Maggie's suggestions but I am interested in understanding the reasoning for her suggestion. Only in understanding the reason can I determine the right course of action.

Right now, it can get in the mid-50s at night, which is obviously too cold. I have two questions:

If I were able to ensure a temperature of 70 degrees is available in the little enclosed portion of the house that I posted, then would that be sufficient? If not, then why not?

Last night I brought him in and put him back in the dinky glass aquarium that he used to live in at his old home. I was loathe for him to spend any more time in there because i have read how bad those are, however, perahps it's not that big of a deal for him to spend the night in there and then go out to the house we have built during the day.

Do you think that would be preferable then finding a good heating solution for the enclosed portion?

Finally, can you look at the pics and see what other suggestions you might make for the enclosure?

Thanks!

 

[katesgoey]

I have Leopards, not Sulcata, but their care is very similar. Maggie did explain the reason for her advice - he is too small to be outdoors in lower temps. I looked up your first thread to see how old and what size so your questions can be answered. The sites I provided explain the temps required for baby sulcatas. But if you can't bring him inside, you'll need to research how to set up a heated outdoor enclosure and then I would think you'd have to make sure he stays in it when it is too cold. I have a yearling Leopard and I won't keep him/her outside because they require a higher temp than our winters can provide (and to protect him from predators). Having said that, a protected outdoor environment is best for them otherwise. The exercise provided by a larger enclosure is also beneficial. I started keeping Bump outside when he was over 6" (he's now over 8"). For my larger and older Leopards, I use a rubbermaid shed that I have insulated with plywood and foam insulation between the rubbermaid walls and the plywood. I use two lamps - one is a black bulb and the other is CHE, I will turn both on when the temps get too low to maintain properly. If you are going to keep him outdoors, I would also add a UVB lamp in the shed so he gets the needed rays if he has to stay in it when its too cold. Its up to you how you set him up - there is alot of conflicting info on other issues, but I haven't seen much conflict in the basics: keep them warm (a cooler end toward 68-70 degrees and a warmer, basking end in the high 89 - 90's. Feed them Spring Mix and edible foods listed on the sites I gave. Sulcata babies also need more humidity than Leopards so figuring how to provide that will be another concern. The concern about his age and size is that he will be susceptible to upper respiratory infection if he becomes too cold because he is not large enough to regulate his own body temps. Predators are another concern at his size. I hope that helps you sort out what steps you want to take for his set up and care.

 

[Yvonne G]

The only thing I have to offer is for you to make the house taller so that you can put in a CHE (ceramic heat emitter) or black light bulb with fixture. I can't think of any type of heater that would fit into that short house.

Yvonne

 

[tortaunt]

All very useful info, ladies. Thanks!

He is not a baby but I don't know how old he is but I think between 1 and 2 years so a juvenile. I will measure him tonight and post back.

I'm going to keep bringing him in at night until my boyfriend can raise that enclosure so we can put in a heater (either CHE or black-light). I presume that due to his age, there would be concern about using a heating pad as the heat source. Is that right? (There does seem to be a lot of mixed advice on this point, which has me confused). If I am only bringing him at night and letting him stay in his other area during the day, do I need to provide all sorts of micro-climates in the indoor area, as well, including lighting?

Another reason I'm concerned about bringing him in is he seems a bit stressed out from all of the changes (coming to live here, new environment, etc.) and I don't want to add to his burden by constantly handling and moving him right now. Any advice to assist with that?

I have been having a hard time figuring out the right mix of micro-climates, as well. Can someone help me understand whether all of his areas should be humid or only the hot part? Should it be hot and humid in one area plus cooler and dry in another?

So many questions....thank goodness for all of you!

---

Also, I have his outdoor enclosure protected from predators with a wire covering. You may be able to see it in the pictures.

One more thing: he's not eating or moving around too much which is why I think he is stressed.

 

[Laura]

I like Yvonnes suggestion of a different house or making it taller to fit the ceramic heat emitter.
Russians and Box turtles live outside at that size, but a 2 year old sulcata is TINY and young compared to how big they get and how long they live. Being in Southern ca, you will prob do fine as long as he can stay warm. Since he is small he cant retain his heat like larger torts can. so he can chill quickly. Since they dont hibernate and will be cruising around even in cooler wet weather. he will need his very warm house and probably a basking area with a heat lamp on the out side of his house.

 

[Yvonne G]

I only have experience with the Stansfield heat pad, so that's why I didn't say anything about using one of them. They don't make them small enough to fit in your little guy's house. You want something that doesn't take up the whole floor space, because if it sticks on hot, he won't be able to get off it. So something in one corner, but the other corners are free.

Yvonne

 

[mwindman]

I live in Arizona but our mornings can get to 37 degrees; I have a three year old Sulcata and he has a black light for in the mornings on a timer but at night he lives inside with a black light and a uvb just in case he can't go outside in an extra large dog kennel which is 3.5 feet by 6 feet with sterile soil and hids; We live out in the middle of the desert and don't feel comfortable leaving him out at night yet; Morris knows the routine and they get comfortable with it; He goes out in the early morning and comes in and soaks for a little bit then eats and goes to his enclosure for the night; He loves to be held with his neck rubbed; I don't think once they get the routine down that they stress too much

 

[katesgoey]

As for your humidity question - warm/hot and humid is good, cold, wet and humid is bad so setting up an outdoor enclosure to fit those requirements is another reason why it's tricky with little ones. It will be difficult to meet that outdoors, but again living in SoCal, you will be better able to provide what he requires than someone in a colder climate. Providing the heated enclosure (raised as Yvonne suggested) will give him the heat. I can't really answer how you ensure it is humid in there for him. BTW, my earlier response was based on the photo I saw of him next to a folder - looks to be around 3 1/2 to 4" tops?? Looking forward to your updated measurements.

 

[tortaunt]

Just measured him, katesgoey, and your eye is good. He is just a titch over 3.5".

Here's what I did today. I purchased a plastic storage container that is a bit longer and shorter than the glass tank he came in. I set that up inside with 50/50 coir-sand mix and a hide. I will have to get the correct light for nighttime as he only came with a sun glo light which I think is only for the day time. As often as possible, I will move him to his larger outdoor enclosure once the day warms up.

 

[katesgoey]

Just measured him, katesgoey, and your eye is good. He is just a titch over 3.5".

Here's what I did today. I purchased a plastic storage container that is a bit longer and shorter than the glass tank he came in. I set that up inside with 50/50 coir-sand mix and a hide. I will have to get the correct light for nighttime as he only came with a sun glo light which I think is only for the day time. As often as possible, I will move him to his larger outdoor enclosure once the day warms up.

I think you'll find the set up indoors can be fun also because you can interact with him even on days that neither of you should be outdoors (Unless that folder he was next to was a super size I'd never seen, it really wasn't hard to "guess" his size).

 

[TheACO731]

This is what I built for my Sulcatas, It is built around a plastic wash macine pan that is removable for cleaning. I have a UV light and a 60w emitter on a thermostat control. With a remote temp gauge that has an alarm feature, if the temp drops or goes above a set temp. I can monitor it from my bed side. They only spend the night in here and cold days. They are outside free to roam the back yard during the day.

 

[tortoisenerd]

As far as I know the Sun Glo bulb does not provide UVB. If this tortoise is not outside on a regular basis, I recommend a UVB bulb such as a Mercury Vapor Bulb. The T-Rex or Mega Ray are the best brands. This is a heat, UVB, and light all in one and for what I assume your enclosure size is, the only bulb you should need. The storage bin sounds great! We'd love pictures. How is the temperature gradient currently? What is your night temperature in your house? If at least 65 F, no heat is needed in my opinion. If it is below that, then a Ceramic Heat Emitter or a black light bulb can bump it up a bit.

 

[tortaunt]

Hey guys-

Today I went out and purchased some lighting. I got the Mercury Vapor bulb for daytime and a black light for nighttime (since our house can get chilly at night). Right now it's 80 degrees under the black light and between 70 and 75 on the other side where the half log is.

The storage bin I have him in is pretty small since he was always meant to reside outside and there is not much space for something bigger. However, I will have to rethink that since it looks like he will likely spend much of the winter inside and it will be difficult to maintain the correct hot and cool sides in such a small space. Attached is a pic.

I'll get some temperature readings tomorrow with the Mercury Vapor bulb.

I'm really worried about Tortilla however as he has not eaten since I got him here on Saturday morning and he is barely moving. If I place him somewhere, he basically just tucks up in his shell and stays there whether it's hot or cold or hidden or not

I have him inside now under the black light and plan to keep him inside until he seems in better shape. Does anybody have any suggestions? I'm really worried. I know this has all been a big change for him - for example, I soaked him on Saturday and don't think he's ever been soaked before. I know he had water in his terrarium at his old house but I don't know if he ever drank from it and he was being fed basically all spinach. Now I am offering him spring mix but, like I said, he's not eating.

Help!

---

Here are a couple of pics of the storage bin set-up.

 

[katesgoey]

Tortaunt (can we know your name? What part of SoCal do you live in??)

I realize this can all be a bit confusing and overwhelming. To review - everything I've read on this thread is consistent in providing Tortilla a warm inside enclosure for cold winter days and mainly winter nights which he needs because he may not be a hatchling, but he is still young and small and will have trouble regulating his own body temp. So far, you've got a great protected outdoor environment that now just needs a raised shelter for heating during cold winter nights when he's a bit larger. In the meantime, you've now set up a decent indoor environment for cold winter days and nights. It may be a bit small, but if that's the space you have to work with, its fine. You can still put him outside during the warmer days. Depending on the winter temps in your area once you get the shed raised to add a heating bulb, then even on cooler days he could stay in the outside environment. What are your average winter temps?? So, now you have the basics for him set up. You've done everything we've suggested and now he seems to have issues so, it gets frustrating, doesn't it? (I've been there too). So, let's look at each one.

The indoor enclosure you set up for him is a bit small for full time use, but we've been referring to how to keep him warm at night and on cold winter days, so it should work for him for that purpose. You can still set him outside during warmer days for exercise and natural UVB rays until you can provide heat out there too. The lights should be around 12" from his carapace - they look a little higher than that to me from the picture, but maybe not. I would move the black lamp to the hide side and the basking light to the open side so he is exposed to the UVB rays coming from that bulb and can go in his hide to escape it. (Some keepers feel that he will get enough UVB from being outside, but providing them inside ensures that he gets UVB on those days you can't put him out). For easier heat regulation: I turn off the black light during the day and only keep the UVB lamp lit, then only keep the black bulb on at night. You can moisten the substrate occasionally to keep the humidity in the 70% range. He is not a hatchling so the humidity level is not as critical now and he won't need the higher humidity as much when he gets older, but it will help now with preventing pyramiding.

Your outdoor enclosure looks great for him during the day and it will work well for him at night when he's a bit bigger if you raise the shelter and provide the heating he needs - of course you'll have to keep increasing the size of the enclosure the bigger he gets You can use dog igloos, rubbermaid deck boxes or sheds for a raised shelter (check out the enclosures section) I use the black light and CHE to heat my outdoor sheds and it seems to work fine so far. I suggest you put his outdoor water bowl a little deeper into the ground to help prevent his flipping over and move any other obstacles that might contribute to that (I don't really see any one in particular but the water bowl) You'll have to just observe him in his outdoor enclosure to see if there is something else causing him to flip.

As for his eating and behavior right now....if you just got him on Saturday, then its normal for him to be a bit cautious and reticent to eat - he's adjusting to his new environment, then we go and tell you change it some more The change of homes is stressful by itself, plus moving him indoors and outdoors too. For now, I would keep him in one place as much as possible so he can adjust to you and his new environment. Soaking him is a good thing. Keep offering him the Spring Mix with a little calcium sprinkled over it (or put a cuttlebone in his enclosure) and depress a water bowl in his indoor enclosure so he can drink if he wants to. Give him a day or two more and see if he doesn't start coming around and eating. How long do you think he was on his back when he flipped over?

 

[chadk]

I like the outdoor setup.

A few comments coming in late... If he is outdoors in SoCal, you should not need to buy UVB bulbs. Even if you get cruddy weather for a few weeks, the tort will be fine.

Instead of trying to raise the roof to accomodate a heat lamp (i'd stick with a CHE), have you considered 1) cutting a hole and putting the light on top in a way that will be weather proof? or 2) lower the floor. Dig down into the dirt to get the clearance you need under the CHE. Be prepared to measure the temps under the che from time to time to be sure the basking spot isn't too hot or too cool.

For a temporary summer shelter for mine (a place to stay warm and dry on those cold spring, summer, fall days before I moved my little on inside for the winter... I simply took a rubbermaid bin (http://www.rubbermaid.com/Category/...e=Storage&SubCatId=Roughneck&Prod_ID=RP091418) and cut out a door in one end. Cut a hole in the roof (slits) to push the cord thorugh, then pulled the che and dome housing unit up snug to the roof from the inside. Sealed with with indoor\outdoor sealant and tied a knot so it could not accidently slip down if the sealant gave out. I dut out the dirt udner it enough to get the clearance needed. Worked great all summer this year.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

tortaunt, It sounds to me like that baby is already sick, and yes, he IS still a baby. I don't think he is stressed, I think he is too cold. He is already pyramiding. His carapace should be totally smooth and I can see shadows from it, telling me it isn't smooth. I would put him outside every day. He needs the sun. Don't worry about making a fancy tort table just make it functional. None of my habitats are fancy. All they need is a hide, a water dish and the lights. He needs a UVB light (maybe) and a black light. In SoCal if you put him outside daily you can leave the UVB light out. But you do need to put him outside daily. Then you add a black light bulb for nighttime warmth, and you're all set.