Only child syndrome!

[Shelli]

In your opinion is it better to have one or at least 2 Red foots? I always thought they were solitary animals, but looking on here it seems the latest trend is having more than one.
The person that has my old tortoise got a friend for it and said the two of them do everything together and that little tortoise wasn't the most outgoing of tortoises..
However my Jaba is fairly outgoing like she does spend time out of her hide, climbing over things and doing some exploring, she spends like 45 minutes in and then 15 minutes out kind of thing...
Would she be more outgoing and feel safer if she had another Red foot in her enclosure with her?
Do they really do things together?
This doesnt' have to be a right or wrong question just looking for opinions, perhaps did you have one and then got another did you notice a behavior change for the better in the one that you had before? etc..

Thanks

 

[matt41gb]

Shelli, red-foots, as well as all reptiles are not social animals by nature. In their world another tortoise is competition and if they can't compete it causes them stress. Since red-foots rarely show any kind of territorial aggression, we think that they need a companion. It's really easy to anthropomorphize a tortoise. We have to step back and look at how it works in nature.

Now I do believe, and know from experience that you can successfully keep several red-foots together. You have to make sure that they don't have to see each other, or be in the presence of one another 24/7. If they're allowed to get away and hide, or are offered enough food it cuts back on their stress levels. In the wild red-foots cross paths, but only on occasion. Males will seek females during breeding season and then they go on their way. I don't believe that they stick together so closely in their natural habitat.

I have a male yellow-foot that is so aggressive that he severely bit the legs of one of my females and made her bleed. I have to remove him from the others because he causes so much stress to the others.

I definitely think you should get another, red-foots are addictive! Good luck!

-Matt

 

[Jacqui]

You have already been told the facts about in the wild tortoises tend to be solitary animals.

Now for my personal thoughts: I have only a couple of animals that live alone. I, in my own enclosures. tend to usually keep a trio. I like keeping trios (one male to two females) to help keep the stress down on the female from having a male constantly following her around. That being siad, I will admit I have a couple of enclosures with just two (about the same number of enclosures as I have with just one animal housed in them).

With youngsters I like getting more then one, because I think they do better with that spark of competition from each other.

When you house more then one, then size really does matter. Size of enclosure (needs to be plenty roomy), size of the animals being housed together (need to be close to the same size), and size and number of hides so they can either share or have their own place for hiding as they choose).

You also need to always be watching for conflicts, even "mental" bullying and have another enclosure you can set up if needed.

It's easier to keep just one and with just one in an enclosure, you can do a better job of spotting problems. For instance you will know who ate what and how much.

 

[terryo]

I think everyone has a different take on this one, but most feel that they don't need companions. My own personal experience......my Cherry Head had a companion, for two years, since he was a hatchling. When he lost his companion, whom he followed all over, and always slept in the same hide with him, he didn't eat for days, and paced around the whole enclosure, and finally went in his hide and never came out to eat or drink. I had to take him out every day and put him before his food, and into his pond. He finally started to eat again, and eventually came back to normal. He's been alone since with no problems. I only have the two tortoises, so this is the only experience I have.

 

[Shelli]

Thank you so much for the answers..
Jacqui, I think what you said is exactly what happens..
"With youngsters I like getting more then one, because I think they do better with that spark of competition from each other."

That is what I am missing and what I think I misundertood would be the tortoise being more outgoing with another, it's not necessarily because it feels safer and more content it is because it is competition? Maybe!
When we first saw Jaba we couldn't believe it as we were naive and didnt' think they had RF's here.. LOL (we were very wrong)... Then my husband went to see if she was still there after about a month and she was but when he went back she was with a very young RF. Even though they practically give them away here $5 for the young one!!.
He wanted to get them both but I told him no as a very young one would be too much of a worry for me..
Then of course seeing all the cute pictures of all the tortoises running around together and seeing a yard with many I have started to feel cruel for having Jaba by herself..
However.. I definately dont' think she has the spark she could have but I still love her and unless it is a case of saving one or being offered a really really pretty one.. lol.. I am going to keep her as an only one.
We spend one on one time in the mornings before I put her in her pen she loves her head massaged and her little legs... owwww.

 

[Madkins007]

Ummm.... wild Red-foots are NOT solitary animals.

True, they do not show social structures, as in 'alpha males', 'pecking orders', etc. that we can see, other than the big ones get their way usually, but...
- They are often found sharing hides, even when apparently good hides are nearby.
- They actually leave scent trails that other Red-foots will follow.
- They are often found feeding together.
- Studies have shown that partnerships or small groups form and stay loosely together for some time (not quite mating pairs or families, but more research is needed for this.)
- They often mate in groups, and battle for females in a ritual way- a sign of socializing. (Actual fighting would not be as strong a sign of social development.)
- Desert Torts (the most studied species) are known to communicate to other torts far away with sub-sonic vibrations. Little is known about this so far- do other species do it, what sorts of messages are sent, etc., but ANY form of interpersonal communication is a sign of some form of socializing.


Some of this is conspecific behavior- one animal follows another because if it is there, things must be safe or desirable. For example, water turtles sun on a log together because of one is there, it must be a nice place, and the old 'safety in numbers' bit- if one gets spooked, they can all hide faster.

SOME of it is conspecific- but not all of it. I think that with some species, such as Red-foots, 'cage mates' help reassure them that everything is OK on some level. From what I have seen and read, I think Red-foots should be raised in groups whenever possible- but that it is not critical to do so.

(Sources include Vinke and Vetter's "South American Tortoises", Deb Moscovitz's dissertation, Vinke's field notes, etc.)

 

[N2TORTS]

Ummm.... wild Red-foots are NOT solitary animals.

True, they do not show social structures, as in 'alpha males', 'pecking orders', etc. that we can see, other than the big ones get their way usually, but...
- They are often found sharing hides, even when apparently good hides are nearby.
- They actually leave scent trails that other Red-foots will follow.
- They are often found feeding together.
- Studies have shown that partnerships or small groups form and stay loosely together for some time (not quite mating pairs or families, but more research is needed for this.)
- They often mate in groups, and battle for females in a ritual way- a sign of socializing. (Actual fighting would not be as strong a sign of social development.)
- Desert Torts (the most studied species) are known to communicate to other torts far away with sub-sonic vibrations. Little is known about this so far- do other species do it, what sorts of messages are sent, etc., but ANY form of interpersonal communication is a sign of some form of socializing.


Some of this is conspecific behavior- one animal follows another because if it is there, things must be safe or desirable. For example, water turtles sun on a log together because of one is there, it must be a nice place, and the old 'safety in numbers' bit- if one gets spooked, they can all hide faster.

SOME of it is conspecific- but not all of it. I think that with some species, such as Red-foots, 'cage mates' help reassure them that everything is OK on some level. From what I have seen and read, I think Red-foots should be raised in groups whenever possible- but that it is not critical to do so.

(Sources include Vinke and Vetter's "South American Tortoises", Deb Moscovitz's dissertation, Vinke's field notes, etc.)

***THIS IS THE SMARTEST and best REPLY /COMMENT IN A LONG TIME !
MARK .... YOUR ABSOLUTLY RIGHT ! .....
NUFF SAID!
GREAT JOB!
JD~

---

PS.
I'am... an only child with 15 RF's N CHERRY'S ~

JD~

 

[terryo]

I totally agree.....GREAT post Mark.

 

[Tom]

I'm no RF expert, but I have had them in the past. I have two general tortoise things to add.

#1. Leave well enough alone. Everything's going great and you risk upsetting it all by adding a tort.
#2. They generally do better in groups rather than pairs. Pairs can get very "personal" with each other, where in a group all the interactions are spread out somewhat. So don't add one. Add six.