New Tortoise owner: Any Help?

[Pjust]

Hello,

I’ve have been researching tortoises for a while now and it seems to be difficult to find consistency in terms of tortoise care. I originally wanted a cherry head baby to start. Currently I have a Zoomed tortoise table with coconut fiber and mulch substrate on top. The table is also lined with a fish-safe pond liner to keep the wood from rotting. However I have heard that it is impossible to keep the heat and humidity levels adequate for a cherry head with this type of enclosure. If anyone knows how to make that possible, let me know. Otherwise, can anyone provide me with a species of tortoise that will reach 10-15” fully grown, and requires lower humidity compared to a cherry head. Also let it be known that the room of the enclosure maintains a steady 70-72°F

 

[SinLA]

So it sounds like you don’t have a Tortoise yet, correct? The first thing I’m gonna tell you is that tortoises need a lot more physical space than most people realize and certainly than any kind of pet store or someone who sells a “tortoise habitat” advises. Those tortoise habitats are almost worthless. You can’t keep a baby in them because you need a closed chamber, and by the time the baby is big enough not to need a close chamber that is going to be much too small, unless you plan on connecting five or six of them together, which is what I do for my indoor enclosure but I also have a 10 x 12 outdoor enclosure. And this is for one, 5” inch Russian Tortoise - probably one of the easiest to keep, much easier than a redfoot unless you live in Florida…

It is going to be exceedingly difficult if you live in Manhattan to keep it Tortoise with the amount of space it needs for the size you want. The smallest tortoises like Russians still need 4’ x 8’. Cherry heads need incredibly high humidity and much more heat than an Ambient 75°. If you get a Russian you don’t have to worry about humidity once it’s an adult but you have to worry about humidity for all babies no matter what.

this is a really good resource to start: https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/info-for-new-people-please-read-this-first.202363/, it’s dense but has a lot of information that you really should understand before committing to a tortoise as a pet.

It’s certainly possible if you have a gigantic apartment, by Manhattan standards, with outdoor space, but they are really not ideal pets if you were limited on both indoor and outdoor space.

Unless the Manhattan in your profile is not Manhattan New York and maybe it’s Manhattan Kansas???

 

[Pjust]

So it sounds like you don’t have a Tortoise yet, correct? The first thing I’m gonna tell you is that tortoises need a lot more physical space than most people realize and certainly than any kind of pet store or someone who sells a “tortoise habitat” advises. Those tortoise habitats are almost worthless. You can’t keep a baby in them because you need a closed chamber, and by the time the baby is big enough not to need a close chamber that is going to be much too small, unless you plan on connecting five or six of them together, which is what I do for my indoor enclosure but I also have a 10 x 12 outdoor enclosure. And this is for one, 5” inch Russian Tortoise - probably one of the easiest to keep, much easier than a redfoot unless you live in Florida…

It is going to be exceedingly difficult if you live in Manhattan to keep it Tortoise with the amount of space it needs for the size you want. The smallest tortoises like Russians still need 4’ x 8’. Cherry heads need incredibly high humidity and much more heat than an Ambient 75°. If you get a Russian you don’t have to worry about humidity once it’s an adult but you have to worry about humidity for all babies no matter what.

this is a really good resource to start: https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/info-for-new-people-please-read-this-first.202363/, it’s dense but has a lot of information that you really should understand before committing to a tortoise as a pet.

It’s certainly possible if you have a gigantic apartment, by Manhattan standards, with outdoor space, but they are really not ideal pets if you were limited on both indoor and outdoor space.

Unless the Manhattan in your profile is not Manhattan New York and maybe it’s Manhattan Kansas???

Yes I should’ve clarified, I am in Kansas. Would a Greek tortoise or Hermanns tortoise better suit my conditions? Also, I have a coworker who owns 20+ tortoises and his advice was to just mist the enclosure twice a day, and soak the babies everyday for 10-20min and that’ll be adequate in terms of humidity and hydration. What do you think?

Also I will mention it now, no I do not have a tortoise yet. And I plan on eventually having a bigger tortoise enclosure when they grow, but for now the tortoise table will have to do. I was waiting to purchase lights until I knew what species I should get and the lights I would need

 

[SinLA]

I think your neighbor has a lot of old school opinions and probably had some serious pyramiding.

also welcome to the forum, it’s a great place to learn and is great that you are tying to learn BEFORE you get your tort, you are already smarter than a lot of the rest of us!

im going to defer to others who can advise you on species, but now that its clear you aren’t trying to raise a tort in a nyc apartment, that changes things, lol.

do you want it to be entirely indoors or do you have outdoor space available? Do you want some thing that hibernate in the winter or can you keep it heated all year long?

 

[Pjust]

I think your neighbor has a lot of old school opinions and probably had some serious pyramiding.

also welcome to the forum, it’s a great place to learn and is great that you are tying to learn BEFORE you get your tort, you are already smarter than a lot of the rest of us!

im going to defer to others who can advise you on species, but now that its clear you aren’t trying to raise a tort in a nyc apartment, that changes things, lol.

do you want it to be entirely indoors or do you have outdoor space available? Do you want some thing that hibernate in the winter or can you keep it heated all year long?

So at this time I will want it to be indoors apart from days when it’s sunny and hot out where I’ll let it soak and absorb sun for a few hours each day. Keeping it heated year round won’t be an issue for me if I get the right light for the right species. Eventually, I will be open to have a bigger enclosure whether it be a yard or a bedroom, but for the next couple years it will be limited (hence why I’d prefer a hatchling, even with the challenge that comes with). I figured a baby cherry head will stay small enough for the zoomed box to work until I get a bigger environment, however, with an “open enclosure” I’m starting to wonder if I’ll be able to keep the right parameters, and now I’m wondering if a Greek or hermanns tortoise would better suit me

 

[SinLA]

you need an enclosed chamber no matter what, if you get a baby. Doesn’t matter the species. But I suspect a Russian, Greek, or Hermon would be much easier for what you’re looking for as an adult.

Definitely check out that link in the meantime while we wait for somebody more experience in all three of those species to give you input. I only know about Russians…

 

[SinLA]

@ZEROPILOT can advise about cherryheads, @Tom and others about the others.

Also just read through a lot of the posts here you’ll see a lot of responses that probably will answer a lot of your questions anyway

 

[Tom]

Hello,

I’ve have been researching tortoises for a while now and it seems to be difficult to find consistency in terms of tortoise care. I originally wanted a cherry head baby to start. Currently I have a Zoomed tortoise table with coconut fiber and mulch substrate on top. The table is also lined with a fish-safe pond liner to keep the wood from rotting. However I have heard that it is impossible to keep the heat and humidity levels adequate for a cherry head with this type of enclosure. If anyone knows how to make that possible, let me know. Otherwise, can anyone provide me with a species of tortoise that will reach 10-15” fully grown, and requires lower humidity compared to a cherry head. Also let it be known that the room of the enclosure maintains a steady 70-72°F

You have finally found the right source of care info, but you aren't going to like what we tell you. We will be telling you what you need to hear, not what you want to hear. Our interest is solely in helping you to have a healthy tortoise and a happy tortoise keeping experience. Most of the care info out in the world for tortoises is all wrong. Your co-worker is a prime example. They were taught the old wrong info, and they are now passing that info down to you. If you do some internet research and watch some popular YT videos or join a FB group, or go to a pet store, you will get the same wrong info that your co-worker gave you. Its nearly universal. Its the same wrong info I was taught many years ago.

We will give you the right info. If you ignore this info and do it your own way, you will learn the lessons that so many of us have already learned the hard way. If your tortoise survives, it will bear the damage that is done for its whole life and you will be reminded each time you look at it. We would like to help you and your tortoise avoid the common mistakes, but some people just don't want to hear it.

I'm sorry, but the tortoise habitat you bought is not suitable for any tortoise of any age. As SinLA already explained, it is too small for the adults that can handle drier cooler conditions, and its too open and dry for a baby. You can't properly heat and humidity an enclosure with an open top. Not for any baby, and especially not for a cherry head. That is like trying to heat your house in winter with no roof no it. It can't work. Its just physics. Misting an open topped enclosure does almost nothing, and is pointless. That mist evaporates in minutes and cools the enclosure as it does so.

If you want a CH, you will need a large closed chamber, and eventually a large room sized heated enclosure for an adult. They need dry conditions to avoid shell rot, but high humidity to be healthy and grow smoothly. In a large closed chamber it is easy to maintain high humidity with dry substrate. Not so with an open top. And humidifiers are not the solution. Humidifiers should not be blowing directly into a tortoise enclosure. They shouldn't be breathing those micro droplets.

A greek or hermanni would certainly be easier to maintain in your climate, and they could brumate in winter.

We are not trying to argue with you or upset you. We are trying to help you avoid an all too common emotional train wreck where a live animal suffers the consequences of an ignorant population of pet keepers. At this point, people either tell me what a jerk I am and leave in a huff, or they take this info in and thank me for helping them avoid a disaster. Its a hard pill to swallow, but if you can get it down, everything will be all better. I don't like to see tortoises suffering in the wrong conditions, so I hope you will let us help you.

 

[Pjust]

You have finally found the right source of care info, but you aren't going to like what we tell you. We will be telling you what you need to hear, not what you want to hear. Our interest is solely in helping you to have a healthy tortoise and a happy tortoise keeping experience. Most of the care info out in the world for tortoises is all wrong. Your co-worker is a prime example. They were taught the old wrong info, and they are now passing that info down to you. If you do some internet research and watch some popular YT videos or join a FB group, or go to a pet store, you will get the same wrong info that your co-worker gave you. Its nearly universal. Its the same wrong info I was taught many years ago.

We will give you the right info. If you ignore this info and do it your own way, you will learn the lessons that so many of us have already learned the hard way. If your tortoise survives, it will bear the damage that is done for its whole life and you will be reminded each time you look at it. We would like to help you and your tortoise avoid the common mistakes, but some people just don't want to hear it.

I'm sorry, but the tortoise habitat you bought is not suitable for any tortoise of any age. As SinLA already explained, it is too small for the adults that can handle drier cooler conditions, and its too open and dry for a baby. You can't properly heat and humidity an enclosure with an open top. Not for any baby, and especially not for a cherry head. That is like trying to heat your house in winter with no roof no it. It can't work. Its just physics. Misting an open topped enclosure does almost nothing, and is pointless. That mist evaporates in minutes and cools the enclosure as it does so.

If you want a CH, you will need a large closed chamber, and eventually a large room sized heated enclosure for an adult. They need dry conditions to avoid shell rot, but high humidity to be healthy and grow smoothly. In a large closed chamber it is easy to maintain high humidity with dry substrate. Not so with an open top. And humidifiers are not the solution. Humidifiers should not be blowing directly into a tortoise enclosure. They shouldn't be breathing those micro droplets.

A greek or hermanni would certainly be easier to maintain in your climate, and they could brumate in winter.

We are not trying to argue with you or upset you. We are trying to help you avoid an all too common emotional train wreck where a live animal suffers the consequences of an ignorant population of pet keepers. At this point, people either tell me what a jerk I am and leave in a huff, or they take this info in and thank me for helping them avoid a disaster. Its a hard pill to swallow, but if you can get it down, everything will be all better. I don't like to see tortoises suffering in the wrong conditions, so I hope you will let us help you.

I truly thank u for this information! I do have a question though, the room I would keep this enclosure is a small bathroom with fish tanks in jt and the room It tends to be in is humid in itself, would this help any at all? If not, is there a way to covert the enclosure I bought to a closed chamber that I just haven’t thought of? Once again I appreciate the information u shared, it’s the whole reason I came here in the first place!

 

[Tom]

I truly thank u for this information! I do have a question though, the room I would keep this enclosure is a small bathroom with fish tanks in jt and the room It tends to be in is humid in itself, would this help any at all? If not, is there a way to covert the enclosure I bought to a closed chamber that I just haven’t thought of? Once again I appreciate the information u shared, it’s the whole reason I came here in the first place!

Any enclosure needs a heat lamp, UV tube, ambient lights, and a CHE to maintain ambient temps. All that electrically generated heat dries everything out. With an open top, you get a chimney effect. Even in a humid area, like a bathroom with fish tanks, or South Florida in summer, all those electrical devices and the heat they generate dry everything out. In a closed chamber, all the heating and lighting is inside the enclosure. You use MUCH lower wattage bulbs to maintain the correct temperatures, and all that heat is contained inside the enclosure, instead of drifting up into the room. Heat rises, right? A closed chamber simply holds the heat where we want it.

Here is another analogy. Imagine you have a delicious frosty strawberry margarita. Submerge that margarita into a hot tub and what happens? The sweet cold beverage mixes with the swirling hot water and now you don't want to drink it. Now, put your margarita into a thermos with a tight fitting lid on it (a closed chamber) and submerge it in the same hot tub (the room air in this analogy). Your frosty beverage is contained and not contaminated or diluted by the surrounding environment.

A closed chamber isn't hermetically sealed or air tight in any way. Mine all have vents around the sides and backs, as well as significant air gaps around the doors. The idea is to reduce air flow, not 100% eliminate it. Having a solid top with the heat inside simply contains the heat and humidity we are generating, instead of allowing it to rise up and out of the enclosure causing evaporative cooling and desiccation in the process.

 

[Pjust]

Any enclosure needs a heat lamp, UV tube, ambient lights, and a CHE to maintain ambient temps. All that electrically generated heat dries everything out. With an open top, you get a chimney effect. Even in a humid area, like a bathroom with fish tanks, or South Florida in summer, all those electrical devices and the heat they generate dry everything out. In a closed chamber, all the heating and lighting is inside the enclosure. You use MUCH lower wattage bulbs to maintain the correct temperatures, and all that heat is contained inside the enclosure, instead of drifting up into the room. Heat rises, right? A closed chamber simply holds the heat where we want it.

Here is another analogy. Imagine you have a delicious frosty strawberry margarita. Submerge that margarita into a hot tub and what happens? The sweet cold beverage mixes with the swirling hot water and now you don't want to drink it. Now, put your margarita into a thermos with a tight fitting lid on it (a closed chamber) and submerge it in the same hot tub (the room air in this analogy). Your frosty beverage is contained and not contaminated or diluted by the surrounding environment.

A closed chamber isn't hermetically sealed or air tight in any way. Mine all have vents around the sides and backs, as well as significant air gaps around the doors. The idea is to reduce air flow, not 100% eliminate it. Having a solid top with the heat inside simply contains the heat and humidity we are generating, instead of allowing it to rise up and out of the enclosure causing evaporative cooling and desiccation in the process.

Has any research been done about using Saran Wrap to create a closed chamber enclosure the only aspect of my enclosure that is open is the mesh top, if you were to use a Saran Wrap sheet that won’t seal over the top of that mesh, it would theoretically keep the moisture in, but I would need to know if UVB could penetrate it 🤔

 

[Krista S]

Hi there and welcome to the forum. You’ve been given excellent advice here from some of best and most trusted members of the forum. Unfortunately Saran Wrap won’t work and would be very dangerous around the heating elements. I don’t believe that enclosure is tall enough to have the heating elements inside and still be covered with Saran Wrap. Additionally, the UV cannot penetrate through it. Sometimes we will recommend putting a grow tent or something similar over what was intended to be an open top enclosure, but yours would rot in no time from the humidity. Your life would be made so much easier if you return what you’ve bought and get a proper closed chamber enclosure. Your tortoise will be happier and healthier for it too.

 

[Cherryshell]

Has any research been done about using Saran Wrap to create a closed chamber enclosure the only aspect of my enclosure that is open is the mesh top, if you were to use a Saran Wrap sheet that won’t seal over the top of that mesh, it would theoretically keep the moisture in, but I would need to know if UVB could penetrate it 🤔

An easier method would be to purchase a horizontal grow tent off amazon, there are plenty of options when it comes to size and most come with a rod that you can hang the heat/light elements from.

 

[Tom]

Has any research been done about using Saran Wrap to create a closed chamber enclosure the only aspect of my enclosure that is open is the mesh top, if you were to use a Saran Wrap sheet that won’t seal over the top of that mesh, it would theoretically keep the moisture in, but I would need to know if UVB could penetrate it 🤔

Krista hit all the high points that I would have stated.
1. Flammability/meltability.
2. Low ceilings.
3. UVB can't penetrate.

I would add that:
4. Saran Wrap would not offer good insulation properties.
5. The wood would rot quickly under that kind of moisture.

The plastic green house grow tents are better than nothing, but I don't have first hand experience with those. They seem to work to contain the humidity and better contain the heat, but my gripe is that they smell like plastic, they don't insulate as well, and they make viewing and maintenance more difficult.

 

[Pjust]

Krista hit all the high points that I would have stated.
1. Flammability/meltability.
2. Low ceilings.
3. UVB can't penetrate.

I would add that:
4. Saran Wrap would not offer good insulation properties.
5. The wood would rot quickly under that kind of moisture.

The plastic green house grow tents are better than nothing, but I don't have first hand experience with those. They seem to work to contain the humidity and better contain the heat, but my gripe is that they smell like plastic, they don't insulate as well, and they make viewing and maintenance more difficult.

Can anyone send me a link to a good closed chamber enclosure I can purchase online?

 

[Tom]

Can anyone send me a link to a good closed chamber enclosure I can purchase online?

Animal Plastics makes excellent ones, but the wait is usually 8-9 months.

I like Mark's "Smart Enclosures". That is what I use now. I think he is on FB and has a web site too.

 

[Pjust]

Animal Plastics makes excellent ones, but the wait is usually 8-9 months.

I like Mark's "Smart Enclosures". That is what I use now. I think he is on FB and has a web site too.

How much do the smart enclosures run?

 

[Tom]

How much do the smart enclosures run?

Depends on what size and what options, but they are cheaper tan if you bought all the parts and built it yourself. They are the best tortoise life support system available.

 

[Cherryshell]

Can anyone send me a link to a good closed chamber enclosure I can purchase online?

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=horizont...f=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_3_15&tag=exoticpetnetw-20

Start with these, I'm looking forward to when I have the space/disposable income for one of Mark's enclosures but it'll be some time as they come with everything you'll need. Could easily spend close $1k between the unit and shipping depending on add-ons and where you live.

 

[Cherryshell]

Depends on what size and what options, but they are cheaper tan if you bought all the parts and built it yourself. They are the best tortoise life support system available.

100% agree, can't wait to get two if not three eventually, two for a CherryHead and 1 for a Schneider skink set up.