New Sulcata Parent

[ckiley]

Hi All! I've had my baby sulcata tortoise (approximately 6 months old) for about 2 weeks now. I initially set up the enclosure with sand as the substrate as per the breeders suggestion but after reading Tom's threads and guides I have since changed to coco husk. Charlie had been very active and eating daily but yesterday he/she pretty much slept all day and would not eat. I've been soaking Charlie daily for atleast 15 minutes (despite the breeders recommendation of only 2-3 times per week) and access to a shallow water bowl. I've been feeding home grown kale, collard greens, store bought spring mix, cactus pad (sparingly), timothy hay (finely chopped and soaked), I sprinkle a calcium supplmemt from ZooMed a few times a week and am currently sprouting wheatgrass and ryegrass. I have a tortoise table set up by the window and a mercury vapor bulb thats on for 12 hours. Temps are as follows: 96-100 in the basking area, a range of 75-81 in the open side, 70-72 in the closed side. Temps do not get below 68 at night and there is a hide in the closed area. I just ordered a humidity and temp gauge so I can better monitor as I have no clue what the humidity is at the moment. Any suggestions on how I can improve is greatly appreciated, I plan on monitoring Charlie today for activity level and food intake and will take her to the vet if no improvement.

 

[wellington]

He needs a closed chamber with 80% humidity. A tube florescent for uvb, an incandescent flood bulb for basking of 95-100 and ceramic heat emitter for night heat and any needed day heat.
Being by a window only gives light, not UV. Can give too much uncontrollable heat if sunny or cold if it's cold out and cloudy.
More changes are needed other than just switching out the sand, which was a good thing you did right away.

 

[ckiley]

He needs a closed chamber with 80% humidity. A tube florescent for uvb, an incandescent flood bulb for basking of 95-100 and ceramic heat emitter for night heat and any needed day heat.
Being by a window only gives light, not UV. Can give too much uncontrollable heat if sunny or cold if it's cold out and cloudy.
More changes are needed other than just switching out the sand, which was a good thing you did right away.

He needs a closed chamber with 80% humidity. A tube florescent for uvb, an incandescent flood bulb for basking of 95-100 and ceramic heat emitter for night heat and any needed day heat.
Being by a window only gives light, not UV. Can give too much uncontrollable heat if sunny or cold if it's cold out and cloudy.
More changes are needed other than just switching out the sand, which was a good thing you did right

Are you suggesting a fully enclosed enclosure? This one came with a mesh lid, should I build a lid thats fully closed and cut a hole for the light fixture? One side of the enclosure is closed off with a hide and I've misted the substrate to increase the humidity. The bulb I have provides UVB/UVA/Heat and basking Temps are in the 95-100 range. I do have a ceramic heat lamp but not an additional fixture which I can certainly get, however everything I read says they like a drop in temp at night. Should I move the enclosure away from the window? Right now our highest outside temp is about 60 on average and lowest average is 33. I keep my house temp at 73 and monitor the temp in the enclosure with an infrared thermometer and it's never dropped below 68-69. Humidity and temp gauge should arrive in a few days. What's the best way to increase the humidity?

 

[wellington]

Yes, fully enclosed. Best way to do it with that enclosure is to buy or make a plastic greenhouse type fixture over it so all lights and heat can hang inside
The bulb you are using is not recommended, it is a mercury vapor bulb and is too harsh on the shell and will cause pyramiding. Drop in temp at night is not for Sulcatas. They need it 80-85 day and night never lower.
Places like hardware stores or home Depot stores sell the wide dome ceramic socket fixture you will need for the ceramic heat emitter. Heat at night should not come from lights, it should be dark, so the ceramic heat emitter is used for this.
Get the temps correct ASAP as your baby is getting too cold.

 

[ckiley]

Yes, fully enclosed. Best way to do it with that enclosure is to buy or make a plastic greenhouse type fixture over it so all lights and heat can hang inside
The bulb you are using is not recommended, it is a mercury vapor bulb and is too harsh on the shell and will cause pyramiding. Drop in temp at night is not for Sulcatas. They need it 80-85 day and night never lower.
Places like hardware stores or home Depot stores sell the wide dome ceramic socket fixture you will need for the ceramic heat emitter. Heat at night should not come from lights, it should be dark, so the ceramic heat emitter is used for this.
Get the temps correct ASAP as your baby is getting too cold.

I've read so much conflicting information, it's very frustrating. Thank you for your help. What specific light bulbs do you suggest? I will put the ceramic heat bulb in at night to achieve the correct night time temperature and will work on a lid for the enclosure. I was thinking about adding a reptile heat pad, any thoughts on those?

 

[Maggie3fan]

I have a small greenhouse put over a tort table

 

[wellington]

Babies should not have heat pads
The flood bulbs you might find on Amazon. They are just regular used for yards/house incandescent flood bulbs or Arcadia has some too.
The tube fluorescent you want the HO(high output)
This forum has the correct info. However, you do have to be sure the info you are reading is for the species you have. The Mediterranean species need a drop in temps at night. Sometimes I think members get the wrong info because they are reading what is being recommended for a certain species and not realizing that info is not for every tortoises.

 

[wellington]

I have a small greenhouse put over a tort tableView attachment 365093

Yes, this is what you should look for or make. They aren't expensive to buy. This keeps all lights and heat inside and will hold the humidity much better.

 

[Pák]

Hi!

The temps need to be at every moment in every corner above 80! Thats decide between life and death by those little hatchlings. Every other thing is secondary at the moment.
The last thing you do is buying other bulb right now, because it can be a waste of money if yourt tort dont make it out of the fragile stage. :/ MVB-s dont kill tortoises, they are just not the best options for providing UVB.

If you want Charlie to survive you need to raise the temps everywhere ewerytime above 80F, and give them a closed terrarium as well. The table you have is only good for some tiny mediterran torts like egyptians, because its too tiny and cant hold humidity. A temporary solution is to buy a plant growing tent and put this table in it.

Dont try to raise humidity in an open setup like this because water evaporation makes them even colder and kills them in days :/.

Charlies shell lookes dry to me, if he is really six month old and he did live in an open cold dry setup
at the breeder, that can cause terrible ending at any moment, even if you provide him the best conditions. I had the same problem with my first sulcata, because most breeders dont give the good care for them. :/

I hope you can save Charlie.

 

[ckiley]

Babies should not have heat pads
The flood bulbs you might find on Amazon. They are just regular used for yards/house incandescent flood bulbs or Arcadia has some too.
The tube fluorescent you want the HO(high output)
This forum has the correct info. However, you do have to be sure the info you are reading is for the species you have. The Mediterranean species need a drop in temps at night. Sometimes I think members get the wrong info because they are reading what is being recommended for a certain species and not realizing that info is not for every tortoises.

Thank you, I will get the proper lights and will order the grow tent from Amazon to increase the humidity!

 

[ckiley]

Hi!

The temps need to be at every moment in every corner above 80! Thats decide between life and death by those little hatchlings. Every other thing is secondary at the moment.
The last thing you do is buying other bulb right now, because it can be a waste of money if yourt tort dont make it out of the fragile stage. :/ MVB-s dont kill tortoises, they are just not the best options for providing UVB.

If you want Charlie to survive you need to raise the temps everywhere ewerytime above 80F, and give them a closed terrarium as well. The table you have is only good for some tiny mediterran torts like egyptians, because its too tiny and cant hold humidity. A temporary solution is to buy a plant growing tent and put this table in it.

Dont try to raise humidity in an open setup like this because water evaporation makes them even colder and kills them in days :/.

Charlies shell lookes dry to me, if he is really six month old and he did live in an open cold dry setup
at the breeder, that can cause terrible ending at any moment, even if you provide him the best conditions. I had the same problem with my first sulcata, because most breeders dont give the good care for them. :/

I hope you can save Charlie.

I have a ceramic heat bulb as well that I will get a fixture for and add to the enclosure. I will change out the MVB as well and will use the heat emitter at night. I soaked Charlie for 30 minutes this morning and he/she ate as well. Do you think I should soak again today or what else can I do for the dry shell? The breeder had all the babies in a plastic closed container with sand and the temp was around 82 with high humidity.

 

[Pák]

I soak mine twice a day as well its ok for them Beside than that you cant do anything, until you provide him the closed setup.

 

[ckiley]

I soak mine twice a day as well its ok for them Beside than that you cant do anything, until you provide him the closed setup.

I'm going to soak again this evening and I'll get the enclosure closed up by this weekend. Just checked the temp and the basking area is 100 and the rest is right around 80. I'll keep monitoring it and will get my setup right by this weekend. Thank you all 😊

 

[Pák]

Good luck to you, i am hoping for the best!

 

[ckiley]

Good luck to you, i am hoping for the best!

Thanks soo much, I am too!

 

[Tom]

...but after reading Tom's threads and guides I have since changed to coco husk.

...and will take her to the vet if no improvement.

The breeder had all the babies in a plastic closed container with sand and the temp was around 82 with high humidity.

First, I want to say hello and welcome.

It is very clear that you are trying hard and want to do a good job for your baby. It makes me so frustrated when we see a good person trying so hard to take care of their tortoise, but they fall victim to all the terrible care advice out in the world. We see this every day here, and we know that it is very frustrating for you too.

With all that in mind, we have to tell you what is wrong so you know what to fix and why. Please don't feel attacked or insulted. Our intention is ONLY to help you take better care of your tortoise and hopefully correct the problems that led you here. This is not a roast or any sort of other internet mean-ness. This is help to make your baby better.

I like to address each point by number:
1. Coco husk (aka: chips) is not a suitable substrate. Its too hard for them to walk on and it can cause them to choke or get blocked up if they eat it on purpose or on accident. Coco coir is fine if you keep it damp and hand pack it, but its messy. Fine grade orchid bark works best, and cypress mulch is fine too. Sand is deadly, and I hope what the breeder did (all wrong) doesn't end up killing the baby. Your baby should be three or four times this size at 6 months old, and it may be so small because it is blocked up with sand.
2. MVBs are unreliable and cause pyramiding. There is a lighting guide in the info I will link for you at the end of this.
3. No part of the enclosure should ever drop below 80 degrees and 80% humidity. There is no way to accomplish this in an open topped enclosure. That is like trying to heat your house in winter with no roof. It can't work. Its just physics. You need a closed chamber. Night temperature drops into the 60s are for temperate species like greeks, hermanni or Russians, not for tropical species like sulcata. The temperature SHOULD drop at night for a sulcata. It should drop from a daytime AMBIENT of 90-93 down to around 80 at night. Note that ambient temp is not the same thing as the basking temp, which should be around 100 at tortoise shell height. Check your basking temperature by laying a digital thermometer on its back directly under the bulb, and letting it cook for an hour or more. Adjust the height of the fixture or the wattage of the bulb to get the correct temperature. After setting your basking temp, put that thermometer over in the farthest corner from the heat lamp, and adjust your thermostat on your CHE or RHP until it stays above 80 on the coldest night.
4. Feeding: Sprouted grasses will be great! Hay is for adults, and it is not suitable food for little babies. Try to skip the grocery store foods in favor or more natural foods like weeds, leaves, and flowers of the right types. There is much more on this in the links I will leave.
5. There is nothing any vet can do to help your tortoise. Most of them know very little about tortoise care, will misdiagnose the issue, and then offer treatments that can be harmful or fatal in some cases. They mean well, but there is no semester on tortoise care and how to raise a baby tortoise in vet school, and they have bills to pay. Your issues are husbandry issues. The breeder did everything wrong, and you have found the typical wrong advice to follow that everyone else follows. I say that not to hurt your feelings, but to make you aware of how bad it is out there. You have NOW found the correct care advice that will help get your baby healthy.
6. No heat pads for tortoises in small indoor enclosures. Use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels for ambient heat and control it with a thermostat.

Those are the most important details. It is obvious that the breeder you found is either clueless, lazy, or worse. This is not uncommon, unfortunately. Please take a deep breath or two, relax, and then take a few minutes to read each of these threads a couple of times. Let it all sink in. Its a lot of info to absorb. Don't hurry or rush through it. Your baby is not in imminent danger, so you have time to digest and understand the info. I've crafted each sentence very carefully to get the info across succinctly and efficiently. Questions and conversation are welcome. Our only goal is to help you succeed and have a positive tortoise keeping experience, and to help your baby thrive.

Start here:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

Then this one:

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[ckiley]

First, I want to say hello and welcome.

It is very clear that you are trying hard and want to do a good job for your baby. It makes me so frustrated when we see a good person trying so hard to take care of their tortoise, but they fall victim to all the terrible care advice out in the world. We see this every day here, and we know that it is very frustrating for you too.

With all that in mind, we have to tell you what is wrong so you know what to fix and why. Please don't feel attacked or insulted. Our intention is ONLY to help you take better care of your tortoise and hopefully correct the problems that led you here. This is not a roast or any sort of other internet mean-ness. This is help to make your baby better.

I like to address each point by number:
1. Coco husk (aka: chips) is not a suitable substrate. Its too hard for them to walk on and it can cause them to choke or get blocked up if they eat it on purpose or on accident. Coco coir is fine if you keep it damp and hand pack it, but its messy. Fine grade orchid bark works best, and cypress mulch is fine too. Sand is deadly, and I hope what the breeder did (all wrong) doesn't end up killing the baby. Your baby should be three or four times this size at 6 months old, and it may be so small because it is blocked up with sand.
2. MVBs are unreliable and cause pyramiding. There is a lighting guide in the info I will link for you at the end of this.
3. No part of the enclosure should ever drop below 80 degrees and 80% humidity. There is no way to accomplish this in an open topped enclosure. That is like trying to heat your house in winter with no roof. It can't work. Its just physics. You need a closed chamber. Night temperature drops into the 60s are for temperate species like greeks, hermanni or Russians, not for tropical species like sulcata. The temperature SHOULD drop at night for a sulcata. It should drop from a daytime AMBIENT of 90-93 down to around 80 at night. Note that ambient temp is not the same thing as the basking temp, which should be around 100 at tortoise shell height. Check your basking temperature by laying a digital thermometer on its back directly under the bulb, and letting it cook for an hour or more. Adjust the height of the fixture or the wattage of the bulb to get the correct temperature. After setting your basking temp, put that thermometer over in the farthest corner from the heat lamp, and adjust your thermostat on your CHE or RHP until it stays above 80 on the coldest night.
4. Feeding: Sprouted grasses will be great! Hay is for adults, and it is not suitable food for little babies. Try to skip the grocery store foods in favor or more natural foods like weeds, leaves, and flowers of the right types. There is much more on this in the links I will leave.
5. There is nothing any vet can do to help your tortoise. Most of them know very little about tortoise care, will misdiagnose the issue, and then offer treatments that can be harmful or fatal in some cases. They mean well, but there is no semester on tortoise care and how to raise a baby tortoise in vet school, and they have bills to pay. Your issues are husbandry issues. The breeder did everything wrong, and you have found the typical wrong advice to follow that everyone else follows. I say that not to hurt your feelings, but to make you aware of how bad it is out there. You have NOW found the correct care advice that will help get your baby healthy.
6. No heat pads for tortoises in small indoor enclosures. Use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels for ambient heat and control it with a thermostat.

Those are the most important details. It is obvious that the breeder you found is either clueless, lazy, or worse. This is not uncommon, unfortunately. Please take a deep breath or two, relax, and then take a few minutes to read each of these threads a couple of times. Let it all sink in. Its a lot of info to absorb. Don't hurry or rush through it. Your baby is not in imminent danger, so you have time to digest and understand the info. I've crafted each sentence very carefully to get the info across succinctly and efficiently. Questions and conversation are welcome. Our only goal is to help you succeed and have a positive tortoise keeping experience, and to help your baby thrive.

Start here:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

Then this one:

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

Thank you so much Tom. I really appreciate all the detailed information and the time you took to provide it. I certainly do not take any of this as an insult as I know I am a newbie and obviously was not provided good information from the breeder nor did I find good internet information until I stumbled upon this forum. I will read through all of this information and will make all the necessary changes so my baby can thrive. I'm really not sure if 6 months is an accurate age as the breeder wasn't exactly sure of the hatch date 🙄. Charlie is eating and pooping daily so I am hoping there's no sand impaction. I will stop trying to feed hay and will continue with the sprouts and will start looking in my yard for subtle weeds, etc. We do not use chemicals or pesticides on our lawn and we do intend on making a secure outdoor area once he/she is bigger and it's warmer out. Thank you again!!

 

[wellington]

Hi!

The temps need to be at every moment in every corner above 80! Thats decide between life and death by those little hatchlings. Every other thing is secondary at the moment.
The last thing you do is buying other bulb right now, because it can be a waste of money if yourt tort dont make it out of the fragile stage. :/ MVB-s dont kill tortoises, they are just not the best options for providing UVB.

If you want Charlie to survive you need to raise the temps everywhere ewerytime above 80F, and give them a closed terrarium as well. The table you have is only good for some tiny mediterran torts like egyptians, because its too tiny and cant hold humidity. A temporary solution is to buy a plant growing tent and put this table in it.

Dont try to raise humidity in an open setup like this because water evaporation makes them even colder and kills them in days :/.

Charlies shell lookes dry to me, if he is really six month old and he did live in an open cold dry setup
at the breeder, that can cause terrible ending at any moment, even if you provide him the best conditions. I had the same problem with my first sulcata, because most breeders dont give the good care for them. :/

I hope you can save Charlie.

Actually, all tortoises need high humidity at hatchling size, including the Mediterranean species. The table isn't really good for any species, but if used, should only be used for hatchings, never juniors or adults of any species and for any species, needs to be turned into a closed chamber.

 

[vladimir]

Welcome! You can't go wrong following the advice you get here.

 

[ckiley]

Welcome! You can't go wrong following the advice you get here.

Thank you! I printed out everything Tom provided and will have everything in order by this weekend. Charlie is active, eating and pooping so hopefully I've caught this in time and he/she will grow and thrive!