NEW RT NOT EATING & KEEPS FLIPPING

[kai.oki]

Hi everyone- I'm after a little bit of advice (my apologies in advance if this is a long post!) Two weeks ago we got our first tortoise, she's about 2 years old. She only took a day or two to get adjusted, and settled into a a routine the first week: she would go to sleep early in the afternoon, wake up when her lights came on, bask a while, and eat pretty much straight away. She had no problem eating from my hand, and then would finish eating from her feeding bowl. She was pretty relaxed and content the first two times we gave her a bath. She would spend a lot of time scratching at (and trying to climb) in the corners of her enclosure, but would also just spend a good part of her waking hours roaming around.

Anyway, about a week ago, I noticed she fell on her back for the first time. I slowly turned her back over, then adjusted her surroundings to try to prevent it from happening again. Five days ago we added a new level and ramp to her enclosure to give her more room to move around and to make life more interesting. On first day, she managed to fall onto her back 5 times while trying to climb in various places. We rearranged as much as we could to prevent this from happening (though it still has happened at least two or three times in the past few days.) Ever since the new addition, she has been totally different. She hasn't eaten anything at all (still poops though), refuses anything and everything, and walks over her food as if she doesn't even notice it's there. She is CONSTANTLY trying to climb everything, scratching and banging on the walls. She freaks out when we try to give her a bath and tries to get out the whole time. She seems totally frantic and stressed out.

Does anyone have any ideas about what's happening, or whether or not this pass with time? I'm wondering how long she can really go without food for? She's only 9cm and her enclosure is 4 feet x 4 feet, with another level that's 1.3 x 3.5 feet, So I don't think it's an issue of space. Thanks in advance!

 

[JoesMum]

Can we see photos of the enclosure and lighting please?

What temperatures do you have warm side, cool side, overnight minimum and directly under the basking lamp?

Do you leave your tort in the enclosure or do you let her roam outside it?

Can she see there’s a wider world through glass or plastic?

Rusdians are very active little torts that love to dig and climb. Once the stop being babies they need a minimum of 4’x8’ (1.5 x 2.2 metres) minimum really.

 

[kai.oki]

Can we see photos of the enclosure and lighting please?

What temperatures do you have warm side, cool side, overnight minimum and directly under the basking lamp?

Do you leave your tort in the enclosure or do you let her roam outside it?

Can she see there’s a wider world through glass or plastic?

Rusdians are very active little torts that love to dig and climb. Once the stop being babies they need a minimum of 4’x8’ (1.5 x 2.2 metres) minimum really.

Unfortunately I can't upload photos at the moment, I'm sorry! I am having my phone fixed and will hopefully have it back within a few days and upload some then.

The warm side of the enclosure is around 30 degrees, cool side is 19-21, overnight minimum is 16.5 and directly under the basking lamp it is 35/36.

I have let her outside the enclosure to wander around a couple of times- I am wondering if this was a mistake? At the time I thought she'd enjoy it but obviously it may have just made her more desperate to get out!

There's no glass or plastic for her to see through- we did add a slightly elevated level with a ramp though, and I think she can peek out into the room when she's up there (it has a fence so there's no escape risk). My thinking is that maybe we should remove the new level and add more plants- I just don't know where we can find ones that are safe to put in her enclosure, as I'm pretty sure all the potted plants at nurseries here would be sprayed.

 

[JoesMum]

We don’t recommend letting torts roam outside their enclosure for a few reasons:
- they are away from the heat, humidity and UVB that need to be healthy
- there’s a risk of them ingesting hair or dust bunnies that cause gut blockages
- there’s a risk of them eating something else inedible (I have watched mine trying to eat red circles printed on a newspaper)
- there’s a risk of escape or being stepped on

Unfortunately all of the above risks feature too regularly on TFO. You only have to be distracted for a moment.

Tortoises are happiest and healthiest is an enclosure that’s big enough and set up properly.

I think your tort is telling you she needs more space.

Have you read the TFO care guides? They're written by species experts working hard to correct the outdated information widely available on the internet and from pet stores and, sadly, from some breeders and vets too.

Beginner Mistakes
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

Russian Tortoise Care
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/

 

[JoesMum]

As for plants, the recommendation is that you grow your own or repot into additive free compost immediately you buy it and then grow it on for a few months.

 

[kai.oki]

As for plants, the recommendation is that you grow your own or repot into additive free compost immediately you buy it and then grow it on for a few months.

Yes, that's what we were planning to do. Thanks so much for you help! I did read the TFO care guides, but have had another read again now. My husband and son actually did all the original research and building as the tortoise was a surprise for my birthday- they obviously thought it would be a big enough space for her, but clearly it's not! It's a difficult space to expand on though...I'll have a read and try to come up with some ideas over the weekend. Thank you again

 

[Tom]

What substrate are you using and what sort of UV bulb?

 

[kai.oki]

What substrate are you using and what sort of UV bulb?

The substrate is coco coir, her basking lamp is a 165 watt UVB Mercury Vapor Lamp (UV & Heat).

 

[Tom]

The substrate is coco coir, her basking lamp is a 165 watt UVB Mercury Vapor Lamp (UV & Heat).

Hmmm…. It is clear that something is stressing your tortoise out, but nothing is jumping out at me. I'm not seeing any of the common mistakes people make, and it sounds like an ideal environment. 4x4' should be plenty for a 2 year old, and even an adult would be okay in something that size, although bigger would be better for an adult.

How about bugs? Ants? Cleaning product fumes, scented candles or incense? Cigarette smoke? We are missing a detail here and I'm out of ideas…

You have just the one tortoise right? Any other pets?

What is the wall height from the top of the substrate to the top of the wall? How long is your tortoise?

 

[kai.oki]

Hmmm…. It is clear that something is stressing your tortoise out, but nothing is jumping out at me. I'm not seeing any of the common mistakes people make, and it sounds like an ideal environment. 4x4' should be plenty for a 2 year old, and even an adult would be okay in something that size, although bigger would be better for an adult.

How about bugs? Ants? Cleaning product fumes, scented candles or incense? Cigarette smoke? We are missing a detail here and I'm out of ideas…

You have just the one tortoise right? Any other pets?

What is the wall height from the top of the substrate to the top of the wall? How long is your tortoise?

There are no bugs around, and definitely not ants (her enclosure is indoors though). I cleaned the floors this week with a little bit of mild-scented eucalyptus water- but the odour would have been gone for days now. We haven't used candles or incense, and none of us are smokers.

Yes we only have the one tortoise, and no other pets.

The height from the top of the substrate to the top of the wall is 30cm at the front, 1 metre on all other sides (it's a big box with a front opening). She's 9cm long.

We took out the additional level today which will massively reduce the risk of her flipping. She's still wandering around and scratching at the corners quite a bit, but she doesn't seem nearly as frantic or stressed. It's definitely boring without the other level though, so we'll need to slowly introduce more things to her environment.

Still not eating, and today is the first day she hasn't pooped either.

 

[Tom]

There are no bugs around, and definitely not ants (her enclosure is indoors though). I cleaned the floors this week with a little bit of mild-scented eucalyptus water- but the odour would have been gone for days now. We haven't used candles or incense, and none of us are smokers.

Yes we only have the one tortoise, and no other pets.

The height from the top of the substrate to the top of the wall is 30cm at the front, 1 metre on all other sides (it's a big box with a front opening). She's 9cm long.

We took out the additional level today which will massively reduce the risk of her flipping. She's still wandering around and scratching at the corners quite a bit, but she doesn't seem nearly as frantic or stressed. It's definitely boring without the other level though, so we'll need to slowly introduce more things to her environment.

Still not eating, and today is the first day she hasn't pooped either.

Do you have just the one UV lamp? The MVB? Are there any windows in the room where this enclosure sits?

I'm wondering if this is your tortoise feeling the urge to hibernate, even though temps seem ideal. The shortening days and cooler temps outside might be telling your tortoise that it needs to get somewhere to find a proper hibernation area. This would also explain the loss of appetite.

You might need to add another florescent tube and bump the light timer up to 13-14 hours. Daily soaks will keep the toroise hydrated while it isn't eating too.

At this point, this is my best guess based on what I've read here...

 

[kai.oki]

Do you have just the one UV lamp? The MVB? Are there any windows in the room where this enclosure sits?

I'm wondering if this is your tortoise feeling the urge to hibernate, even though temps seem ideal. The shortening days and cooler temps outside might be telling your tortoise that it needs to get somewhere to find a proper hibernation area. This would also explain the loss of appetite.

You might need to add another florescent tube and bump the light timer up to 13-14 hours. Daily soaks will keep the toroise hydrated while it isn't eating too.

At this point, this is my best guess based on what I've read here...

Thanks so much for your help Tom. I was thinking / hoping that the urge to hibernate might have something to do with it- will the urge pass with time, or are we most likely in for 5 months of this sort of behaviour?

On Monday we put another 18 watt florescent daylight tube in, to keep the whole enclosure more well-lit. Both lights have been on a timer for 11 hours, but I will try bumping it up to 13. She tends to go to sleep around 3pm though. Oh and yes, the room she is in has windows and daylight comes in from about 8am til 5pm. She's on the opposite side of the room to the windows though.

I'll try soaking her daily as well. She doesn't seem to be a fan of the baths at all though! She's always kicking me and clawing at the corners!

 

[Tom]

Thanks so much for your help Tom. I was thinking / hoping that the urge to hibernate might have something to do with it- will the urge pass with time, or are we most likely in for 5 months of this sort of behaviour?

On Monday we put another 18 watt florescent daylight tube in, to keep the whole enclosure more well-lit. Both lights have been on a timer for 11 hours, but I will try bumping it up to 13. She tends to go to sleep around 3pm though. Oh and yes, the room she is in has windows and daylight comes in from about 8am til 5pm. She's on the opposite side of the room to the windows though.

I'll try soaking her daily as well. She doesn't seem to be a fan of the baths at all though! She's always kicking me and clawing at the corners!

Some of them snap out of it after a week or two. Some persist for longer. @Yvonne G has suggested a sort of "mini-hibernation" as a solution for some of these persistent hibernators. Lets see if she'll chime in and offer her tips.

Many of the russians I've housed are fussy about their soaks. Some of them act like they've been dropped into a vat of acid the first few times. All of them get used to it after a while. Some take only a few days, but I've had WC adults that took weeks to get over the shock and horror of a little bit of daily water. In time, all of them get used to it and seem to eventually relax and enjoy it, it not at least accept it. In the mean time, it doesn't hurt them, even if they might act like it does, and it does keep them hydrated and healthy. I also think the daily handling, activity, warm water, and adrenaline boost helps get them out of that "hibernation mind-set". Make sure the water stays warm throughout the soak duration.

 

[Markw84]

I believe lighting is the key trigger for hibernation/brumation and as @Tom has suggested, is probably what is going on.

Temperate area tortoises are exposed naturally to a wide range of photoperiod over the change of seasons. For Horsefield tortoises, that can be as much as a change from 16 hours daylight summer to 8 hours daylight winter. This is accompanied by a drop in overall UV levels and a change in light "color" from about 6000K summer to 4500K winter. Tortoises seem to be very sensitive to these things.

Once photoperiods drop to 12 hours and below, and UV levels begin to decline the urge to hibernate/brumate will often kick in.

With a MVB light, there is a good portion of the enclosure with low UV levels. A MVB along with most lighting used artificially, the light color is often 4500K and below. With a window adding light to the room, the change in ambient light in that room will be dramatically changed with the season - more than we humans realize. With an 11 hour on cycle, you are telling your tortoise it is late fall.

 

[kai.oki]

Some of them snap out of it after a week or two. Some persist for longer. @Yvonne G has suggested a sort of "mini-hibernation" as a solution for some of these persistent hibernators. Lets see if she'll chime in and offer her tips.

Many of the russians I've housed are fussy about their soaks. Some of them act like they've been dropped into a vat of acid the first few times. All of them get used to it after a while. Some take only a few days, but I've had WC adults that took weeks to get over the shock and horror of a little bit of daily water. In time, all of them get used to it and seem to eventually relax and enjoy it, it not at least accept it. In the mean time, it doesn't hurt them, even if they might act like it does, and it does keep them hydrated and healthy. I also think the daily handling, activity, warm water, and adrenaline boost helps get them out of that "hibernation mind-set". Make sure the water stays warm throughout the soak duration.

Thanks again Tom- I'll persist with the daily soaks for sure What's odd is that's she didn't seem to mind them at all during the first week, only started stressing badly about them round the same time she stopped eating. Removing the additional level definitely helped calm her stress though and reduce the risk of flipping. So I'm feeling quite a bit better already!

Thanks to everyone here for the helpful advice and input!

 

[kai.oki]

I believe lighting is the key trigger for hibernation/brumation and as @Tom has suggested, is probably what is going on.

Temperate area tortoises are exposed naturally to a wide range of photoperiod over the change of seasons. For Horsefield tortoises, that can be as much as a change from 16 hours daylight summer to 8 hours daylight winter. This is accompanied by a drop in overall UV levels and a change in light "color" from about 6000K summer to 4500K winter. Tortoises seem to be very sensitive to these things.

Once photoperiods drop to 12 hours and below, and UV levels begin to decline the urge to hibernate/brumate will often kick in.

With a MVB light, there is a good portion of the enclosure with low UV levels. A MVB along with most lighting used artificially, the light color is often 4500K and below. With a window adding light to the room, the change in ambient light in that room will be dramatically changed with the season - more than we humans realize. With an 11 hour on cycle, you are telling your tortoise it is late fall.

Thanks for the info Mark! We actually have a 6500K fluorescent on the other side of the enclosure from the MVB, so it's all pretty well lit now. But thanks to the suggestions, I've now switched the timer to a 13-hour cycle (starting a bit earlier in the morning). However at the moment, she'll most often go to sleep around 3 or 4pm - sometimes even a couple of hours earlier! Is the light still making a difference while she's asleep? (Sorry if that's a stupid question!)

 

[JoesMum]

Thanks for the info Mark! We actually have a 6500K fluorescent on the other side of the enclosure from the MVB, so it's all pretty well lit now. But thanks to the suggestions, I've now switched the timer to a 13-hour cycle (starting a bit earlier in the morning). However at the moment, she'll most often go to sleep around 3 or 4pm - sometimes even a couple of hours earlier! Is the light still making a difference while she's asleep? (Sorry if that's a stupid question!)

I had Joe over 40 years and 3-4 pm was bedtime apart from in the height of summer when he had probably been sleeping through the hottest part of the day.

If he’s eating and not losing weight then I wouldn’t worry

 

[kai.oki]

I had Joe over 40 years and 3-4 pm was bedtime apart from in the height of summer when he had probably been sleeping through the hottest part of the day.

If he’s eating and not losing weight then I wouldn’t worry

Ah, unfortunately that's the problem @JoesMum - she hasn't eaten for 8 days now, and her weight is down 6 grams since one week ago (not sure if that's a significant loss though, she went from 167g to 161g). She had no problem eating out of my hand the first week we had her, and she would finish most of what we put out. Since last Sunday she's refused food, and walks away from it when it's offered.

 

[JoesMum]

You have changed the enclosure and some tortoises do not handle change well - going on hunger strike is a common reaction.

Marching round a changed enclosure is frequently a tortoise trying to be sure that there is nobody else in there trying to oust him from his home. Boundaries must be patrolled until he learns it is safe. Some are much quicker on the uptake than others; the best of them isn’t very bright.

6g weight loss isn’t significant. A poop or a pee can weigh more than that.

Weigh weekly at roughly the same time of day each time.

I think a back-to-basics approach might be needed.

Firstly, try to minimise the tipping risks. Upper levels on enclosures aren’t great in my opinion. The ramp needs to have a shallow slope and sides that cannot possibly be climbed. Even attempting to climb can cause tipping. Controlling temperatures and humidity in such an enclosure is well nigh impossible. Can your tort see out of the enclosure now? That won’t help.

Mound substrate to make gently sloping hills of shelters and the like to avoid plummeting opportunities.

Scrap any reptile bowls, they’re also a tipping hazard, and replace with a flat rock or slate for food and a terracotta plant saucer sunk into the substrate for water.

Try to get temperatures as good as you can. Use a temperature gun like this to measure spot temperatures around the enclosure.

Start the day with the lights coming on with a timer so ‘daytime’ happens at the same time every day.

Soak your tortoise for at least 20 minutes in warm water before he’s warmed up properly.

Tidy the enclosure and place food while he soaks.

Replace your tort and walk away and leave him in as much peace and quiet as possible. Check back occasionally to make sure he’s the right way up, but leave him entirely alone to settle otherwise.

Torts can go a very long time without food and come to no harm, but not without water.

Weigh your tortoise weekly, no more, straight after the soak.

 

[kai.oki]

Thanks again @JoesMum - we removed the upper level and a few other things, so tipping risks are minimum. Seems to have reduced the stress a little. We have a slate for food and a plant saucer for water, are using a temp gun, and have the lights on a timer. She enjoyed her soak first thing this morning, before she was too energetic, so that's awesome Things seem to be improving a little. We're looking for ways to increase the size of her enclosure to 3.5 x 8.5 feet in the coming months too. A huge thanks for your help!