new herman - calcium supplement etc?

[alfiethetortoise]

Alfie the tortoise will be arriving with us next week! He is 1 year old, and a herman!

Have read lots of tortoise information but still have a few questions...

What is the best calcium supplement to use?
Do i need to use a heat mat now, or do i wait until the weather turns colder? (Alfie will be living inside)
Is it safe to put a little hay into the enclosure?
What can i put inside the enclosure so he doesn't get bored?

Plan on feeding alfie with leaves and flowers, mostly from the garden. I plan to fill the table with soil/sand. It will have a heat lamp, food table, water bowl, hide, stones, logs etc.

Any advice greatfully recieved!

 

[bettinge]

I use rep-cal for a calcium supplement! With or without D3 is your choice, there are lots of opinions on this topic. I use D3 inside, and do not use D3 outside! I have done this for many years with many types of reptiles with no ill effect.

I would not use a heat mat, as many reptiles cannot sense heat from below like they can from above, and as a result may burn. If you need extra heating, a ceramic heater is a good option. They last thousands of hours, seemingly forever.

 

[Ozric]

Hi there! Hermann tortoises need a lot of UV light and if kept inside this has to be provided artificially. For indoor use I prefer the combined heat and UV lamps - where I live the MegaRay is king of the hill and the Powersun is also well regarded. Your Hermann needs a hotspot of at least 30C and in my opinion a ceramic heater is not the best way to provide it and neither is a heat mat. The tortoise circulates blood around the top of the shell and in this way picks up the heat it needs. Heating from underneath is not what they were designed for. Apart from the UV aspect of it these animals need a lot of very bright light to be adequaletly stimulated and the only way to do so indoors is to use artificial lighting designed for the purpose.

An alternative to the combined heat and UV lamps is to use a UV tube and provide localised heat separately with an ordinary lightbulb which the tortoise can go near - but not near enough to get burnt. This can sort of work indoors but these tubes must be replaced every six months. The combined lamps last 2 years and are a lot better.

If you do decide to try and maintain your tortoise with just a heat mat and no UV you will need a high quality calcium and D3 supplement but I am firmly against this kind of husbandry myself. I am glad you plan an open topped table for your tortoise as its vital that air circulates freely and that there is enough room for a hotspot and a cooler area. These are essentials in my view.

 

[tortoisenerd]

I recommend a pure calcium powder (no D3 if UVB is provided); you can even buy the human supplement. Heating depends on the room temperature. You want the enclosure to have a range from the 70s-80s, with a temperature drop at night, but probably not below 60-65. If you need heat now, then you can use a ceramic heat emitter or black light bulb. I do not think heat mats are ever a good idea for small tortoises. Hay that is lower in protein, such as Timothy but not Alfalfa, is fine to have a pile in there. My little guy likes it at the hottest part of the enclosure to hide in. I have in my enclosure for my little one to play with: log hide, hay pile, three fake plants, driftwood, water bowl with steps, slate tile to eat on, and rocks to climb on. I would observe your tort before putting in things such as rocks and anything they can climb on. You want to make sure it is safe for them. Some torts are much more prone to flipping. A hide with flat sides (like a box) is safe, as are fake plants they can't climb on. The more space they have, cage furnishings, and things to break up the line of sight, the more entertained. Most torts will however still try to climb walls and otherwise act bored. That is why most people say that outdoors is the best for torts. Alfie is a great age of tort to get! What kind of foods from the garden? Best wishes.

 

[alfiethetortoise]

I was thinking of going for a UV light and then a basking spot lamp, but was unsure about the heat mat. It seems this is not a good idea! I am glad i asked before i went out and bought one! I didn't realise there was a combined heat and UV lamp to use, this may be a good option...

Grass, dandilion, brocoli, clover, rose petals, peas and geranium grow in the garden. I'll probably feed a little carrot and cucumber. We seem to have a lot of doc leaves. Will Alfie eat these?

I have a one year old daughter and this is why i am going for a one year old herman, but i have wanted a tortoise for some years. I plan to handle the tortoise myself, and eventually when the tortoise is used to being handled let her be a bit closer to him. Does anyone have experience with torts and children?

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Ozric]

Hi again! A UV tube and a basking spot lamp can work well, but it does mean two separate things with wires trailing and all that, and the tubes only last six months. The combined lamps look more expensive at the outset but over time I find they are not. The UVB from the combined lamps is much better than from the tubes. But, its clear you are going to provide UVB for your tort and I think thats important. Hermanns don't really eat grass. Brocoli is a member of the brassica family and should be avoided. Mallows, bugle, dandellions, cat's ear, hawkweeds and sow thistles are all good and will grow in most gardens - even when people don't want them to!! Peas also best avoided but geraniums are fine. Docks are not good for them but all campanulas are. Grated carrot is OK but not too often. Cucumber is really a drink. Some salad leaves are also OK including mache (lambs lettuce) raddicio and frisee, romaine lettuce, rocket.

Tortoises do cope with a certain amount of handling but unlike say cats or dogs they don't really have any need for it. They are not cuddly things and small kids might be best to just watch them really. (If I'm really honest I believe we should all just watch them and keep the handling to times it cannot be avoided like bathing and weighing. They are wild animals and can never be domesticated). But a tortoise can be great fun to watch and care for.

 

[tortoisenerd]

I also agree the Mercury Vapor Bulb is cheaper. One bulb, one fixture, lasts longer. Also better UVB output for the tort! The bulb is about $50 plus $10 shipping. Fixture about $15. Stand $15-25 depending on size. I did the math and vs. buying two fixtures, two bulbs, replacing the tube more often, etc, the MVB was a better deal. The Mega Ray, T-Rex Active UV, and Powersun models are best. Look at www.uvguide.co.uk for info on MVBs. You need a 10 inch or larger diameter deep dome fixture with a ceramic socket, with the bulb face parallel to the substrate. You need the lamp stand to clamp the fixture to, which is adjustable based on the room temperature. You may also need a ceramic heat emitter or black light bulb (you can use a clamp lamp for these) if your night house temperature drops below 60/65. You do still need a night time temperature drop for the tortoise. For example, if during the day the range is about 75-95, you'd want it to be about 65-75 at night.

Dandelion, clover, geranium, and roses are good staple foods. Very very little carrot (once a month a sliver for example). I would never feed cucumber. These treat foods tend to be addictive to torts, and in addition to not being healthy, then can have a tort refuse the good stuff. You can grow all sorts of weeds, veggie leaves (except tomato, pepper, and similar), flowers, lettuces, greens, etc. Just make sure no pesticides/fertilizers. What are doc leaves?

I would only let an older child hold a tort, and then sitting on a couch with you next to the child. Agree they are not meant to be handled.

 

[Ozric]

DOCK LEAVES

I think Alfie is referring to Rumex Obtusifolius. This is a common plant in my part of the world in waste ground, around farms and hedgerows, fields. Not suitable for tortoises due to being high in oxalates.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Thanks for the info!

 

[alfiethetortoise]

Rumex obtusifolius or curled dock Rumex crispus. Doc leaves grow near to nettles in the UK. There are lots around where i live, and i thought it may be good to feed some to alfie. Clearly, this is not a good idea.

 

[Ozric]

Here is a short list of commonly found weeds in the UK that are suitable to feed Alfie:
Dandellion
Sow Thistle (several kinds all good)
Vetches (again several kinds all good)
Hawksbeards, Hawksweeds and Nipplewort
Bugle (good one to grow in shady damp places with nice blue flowers)
Wild Strawberry (young leaf)
Plantain (broad leaved and ribwort both excellent foods and easily found)
Welsh Poppy (Meconopsis cambrica - do not feed other poppies)
Bindweeds
Sticky Plant (cleavers)
Forget-me-not (several kinds all good)
Honeysuckle - flower only -not leaf
Yellow Archangel (a relative of nettle which is also not toxic but mine don't eat it)

(With apologies to our US cousins who may not have these plants in their area). Hope you might find this useful. It is good to expose a young tortoise to a wide range of food plants if possible as they can become fixed on just a few if thats all they have tried.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Ozric...I don't mean to hijack this thread as you and Kate are helping the OP very well without any help from me...But I do have a question... you say you believe that tortoises are wild animals and "can never be domesticated". I seriously disagree with this but don't mean to cause any discord, many others agree with you, my very favorite sister being one. But why do you say they can never be domesticated? Why not?
I have numerous here now that I feel are domesticated. They are social and active and friendly...in fact I have a 65 pound Sulcata who thinks he's a puppy dog and follows me around the yard to the point of irritation and will climb right up into my lap if I sit on the grass.
I would agree that they aren't very cuddly and that they shouldn't be handled by children, but my personal animals are very social and if questioned I would say mine are domesticated.
Again, please understand I am not trying to cause a dispute, I am just curious why you said what you did...

 

[Ozric]

Hi Maggie. No problem at all with your post and no discord either! Always good to have responses. Well you've made me think again about what I wrote which was perhaps a bit hasty. I believe my tortoises act totally on instinct but they also have the capacity to learn certain things and are very sensitive to their environment. They can tell the difference between me and someone else and probably its an association with food mainly. Very young ones will tend to scamper away when they sense disturbance but after a while they come to learn it's not a threat after all. And so maybe I'm coming round to agreeing with you in so far as their behaviour changes. At times though maybe we put too much meaning into their behaviour. Would be intersteing to hear what others think too............

 

[alfiethetortoise]

Hi Ozric, thaks for the food advice! I shall go hunting the garden for these things to feed Alfie. Untill Alfie is settled, he will only be handled by myself. Daughter is very unscared and interested in any animals (she has previously fed giant tortoise at the zoo - as well as lemurs and giraffes and is very un afraid) so i dont think there will be much of a problem with her trying to 'scamper' as you put it. Does anyone else let thier children touch the tortoise's?

 

[Yvonne G]

I think we're confusing "making my tortoise into a pet" with actual domestication of a species. Here's the Wikipedia definition of domestication:

Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming refers to the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control. A defining characteristic of domestication is artificial selection by humans. Some species such as the Asian Elephant, numerous members of which have for many centuries been used as working animals, are not domesticated because they have not normally been bred under human control, even though they have been commonly tamed. Humans have brought these populations under their care for a wide range of reasons: to produce food or valuable commodities (such as wool, cotton, or silk), for help with various types of work (such as transportation or protection), for protection of themselves and livestock, to enjoy as companions or ornamental plant, and for scientific research, such as finding cures for certain diseases.

So, according to the above description, an individual animal doesn't become domesticated because it has been made into a pet. It takes years of human intervention and breeding the animals to domesticate the species. Even though the elephants referred to above had been tamed throughout the centuries, the elephant species is still NOT considered domesticated.

In that vein, I'm guessing that until humans start breeding tortoises for personality, color, habits, traits, then the tortoise will remain a wild animal, and not a domesticated specie.

Yvonne

 

[Carina and Stu]

Hi,

I'm not sure if you can say that tortoises or any other animal can be domesticated or not, that is up to you and your view of "domestication". But I can certainly say that tortoises can become used to humans and other animals where they weren't before. They learn that you are not a threat and so seem to enjoy your company. Over time they won't run away from you and hide under the log every time they hear you coming up the stairs to come and see them (which is what baby Stu used to do...!), but will look at you, follow you, and come over to you when they see you. Whether this is domestication or not is a personal view. Perhaps they have just learned that you are their friend... perhaps by the process of conditioning...