Need help on an Eastern..

mdane

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I own three Easterns for a few years now, and I've noticed that one of them tends to not move for long periods of time, often with head down and eyes closed. It's still alive because she shows signs of movement, also after transferring to a new enclosure it was running about as though nothing was wrong, but after about half an hour it reverted back to this behavior; checked later during the night and it was still in the same spot. Is this normal, or is veterinary care recommended? I prefer not to make a trip out to the vet with the whole COVID-19 situation, but if the issue is critical then I am willing to go out.

A bit more information that may help:
  1. Admittedly, its diet has been mostly earthworms and occasionally lettuce and carrots (this was before I learned that it's better to offer a variety of foods other than live items). I've also seen the turtles eat the stalks of aloe vera plants.
  2. Outdoor enclosure is 5'x5' roughly, I may expand the size if space is the cause. There are two dugouts and a broken clay pot for the turtles to hide in. A pool of water has also been set up for turtles to drink and climb in/out.
  3. Past few days the temperature has been above 85 degrees, and I had an enclosure that was exposed to sunlight for almost the entire day. As of today, the turtles have been relocated to where there is more shade. Also temperature at night averages around 65 degrees.
  4. Humidity is quite low where I live, I try to sprinkle water in the enclosure twice every day, and I'm planting moss, grass, etc. to up the humidity as much as possible. (I would like some advice on this as well)
  5. Last time I saw this particular turtle eat was around 3-5 days ago, and possibly today when I transferred her to the shaded enclosure, it was hard to tell what she was eating..
  6. All turtles in the enclosure are female, the turtle in question tends to hide under the burrows I dug out in the enclosure for most of the day, really only showing up in the morning, though I never saw it do what I described above until earlier this week. If I drop a worm into the enclosure she would stare at it but never make an attempt to eat it. I have not seen the other turtles show any aggression towards one, but I have seen them crawl into the same housing, sometimes blocking it from moving, if that's an indication of anything.
  7. I have a dog that often looks into the enclosure, though most of the time (at least when I'm present) the turtles do not react unless the dog gets very close. (I don't think the dog is the cause, but I'm bringing this up anyway to provide as much info as possible).
Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
 

mark1

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myself , i'd take him to the vet ...... been my experience when they look really sick , they're really sick , and they most likely been sick for quite awhile … I wouldn't put him in the shade , seems to me sick turtles don't thermoregulate well , 85 degrees is ideal 24/7 …….. soak him in warm water , sick turtles dehydrate , I've seen sick water turtles with water a few steps away hunker down in a less than ideal spot and dehydrate ……. you should get him to eat some type of softened(soaked) commercial fish or turtle pellets ……. sweet potatoes are pretty good source of vitamin A ……….. I got a competent vet been doing this for 36yrs , depending on how urgent the situation is , i'm pretty certain the first thing he'd do is try an antibiotic unless he saw something to indicate otherwise ……… i'm a firm believer in b complex , anecdotally I've seen it do what it's claimed to do many times ………. as for turtles I've never seen a problem from ADE …….. sub q fluids have absolutely turned a few turtles around for me ……. best place for box turtles is a sunny enclosure with lots of cover …….. jmo
 

janevicki

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Hello mdane, I am in agreement with Mark. Please you need to take your sick turtle to the vet. I would say one that speciallizes in reptiles if you can fine one. In the meantime, (just follow mark1 advise), bring her indoors with a warm heat lamp.... frequent warm soaks and vet asap.

Once a turtle is showing sickness it's been sick a lot longer.
Take care, and yes, I know it sucks to have to spend money on a vet, but its worth it. Turtles live a long time and they are completely worth it.
 

mdane

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I do have an exotic veterinary clinic close by, but it isn't open today. I'll try to follow the above advice as much as possible, also convince my parents to drive over there when it opens (they're on the fence as to whether a vet is necessary)

Quick update, I prepped some lettuce and carrot scraps with soaked turtle pellets sprinkled in, and the turtle in question ate the pellets quite diligently, so I'm glad that at least she's eating. Last time I checked she's in the enclosure where there's direct sunlight (to clarify about the enclosure, there is no full shade: the enclosure is set up so that there is sunlight for the first half of the day and shade that gradually covers the enclosure as the sun sets). It's weird that at some times she seems normal and other times seems sick, but regardless I'll be making frequent observations throughout the day.

Also I don't have a heat lamp readily available. It's either tucked away in the garage or tossed out. Any alternative options? I do have a tank with a heating pad underneath it, although it's very small (~ 1'x1').

Edit: dumb question, but does an outdoor enclosure need a heating lamp? If so, where's the best place to put it?
 

janevicki

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I do have an exotic veterinary clinic close by, but it isn't open today. I'll try to follow the above advice as much as possible, also convince my parents to drive over there when it opens (they're on the fence as to whether a vet is necessary)

Quick update, I prepped some lettuce and carrot scraps with soaked turtle pellets sprinkled in, and the turtle in question ate the pellets quite diligently, so I'm glad that at least she's eating. Last time I checked she's in the enclosure where there's direct sunlight (to clarify about the enclosure, there is no full shade: the enclosure is set up so that there is sunlight for the first half of the day and shade that gradually covers the enclosure as the sun sets). It's weird that at some times she seems normal and other times seems sick, but regardless I'll be making frequent observations throughout the day.

Also I don't have a heat lamp readily available. It's either tucked away in the garage or tossed out. Any alternative options? I do have a tank with a heating pad underneath it, although it's very small (~ 1'x1').
Yay! ??So happy your girl is eating! if you use the heating pad please put it under only 1/2 of the tank so she can self regulate with the heat. Also make sure she has enough water, maybe soak her once or twice today in warm water. If she poops in the water thats a good thing means her "system" is moving. The most important thing is to keep her hydrated, and warm today and take her to the vet tomorrow. Please keep us updated. Good luck and take care
❤????
 

mark1

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I've used heat lights/che's in outdoor enclosures for tropical turtles and sick turtles to make sure they had an opportunity to get their body temp up ...……. if your turtle is eating you may want to hold off on the vet visit , are her eyes clear and alert ? soak her and keep her from getting cold at night , to hot is every bit as bad as too cold ……… does she stay in her shell ? turtles with more severe issues tend to sprawl out and not be alert to their surroundings ......
 

mdane

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She moved to a corner of the enclosure where there's direct sunlight, so it's hard to tell her eye condition without moving her. At least her head is out. From past experience she does become alert when I try to move her or make rustling noises, and she goes into a panic state if I hold her for too long. Perhaps this is a mild issue? Also regarding the heating pad, I've overestimated the size of the tank with the embedded heating pad, I'd say 9"x9" with the heating pad placed at the center, so I'm not sure if this would be the best idea since she can't move to self-regulate. I could operate it in time intervals if that works.

I'm about to prepare a warm water soak for her right after this message. I'm very appreciative of the support you guys have given me so far.
 

mdane

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Giving an update for the warm water soak. When I went back into the enclosure and she moved again, this time into one of the hiding burrows. Her head was slouched and eyes were closed. Putting her into the tub with warm water, she seemed to take it very well, she bobbed her head under and above the water surface and she used her front legs to wipe her eyes/face. After a minute or two it seemed that she wanted out so I placed her back in the enclosure and she returned to her burrow. I'll perform another warm water soak in the afternoon.

As explained in the original post, it gets to around 65F at night, so I'll consider moving her into my room with a small tank with leave foliage, a desk lamp (if that does anything), and a heating blanket underneath (will be operating it at regular intervals). Should I cover the walls of the tank if they're see-through? I've heard that turtles go insane if they can see outside their enclosure.

Edit: I said her head was slouched and eyes were closed when I found her to do the soaking, but she retracted into her shell (partially) when I reached in to pick her up for the soak, so I guess that indicates good anti-predator response? I think she's gotten used to me picking her up for examination that she doesn't see me as a threat that she'd retract completely.
 
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janevicki

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How warm is it where she is? It would be best to keep her continually warm such as 80oF. Going into a burrow is a response to hid when one is not feeling well and is vulnerable. What are your other turtles doing? Are they out sunning?
 

mdane

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Currently it's 85F, last time I checked the other two turtles were also in the burrows, though they don't show the symptoms that the turtle in question is experiencing.
 

mark1

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Currently it's 85F, last time I checked the other two turtles were also in the burrows, though they don't show the symptoms that the turtle in question is experiencing.
keep your eye on her , if she doesn't respond to being kept warm and hydrated , or stops eating for any length of time , i'd not hesitate to get a vets opinion ......... off the top of my head i don't believe i've ever taken a turtle that was eating normally to a vet , with the exception of accidents ........... eating is what usually is the deciding factor for me .......
 

mdane

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Alright, sounds good.

Just gave her the second warm soak of the day, took it pretty fine as usual. I'm in a bit of a weird situation, my parents don't like the idea of me taking the turtle indoors for the night, and they actually told me that I'm being over-caring of the turtles to the extent that it might stress them out more. I'm still getting the tank with the heating pad set up, at the very least I might put her in that tank in the garage overnight, but in this situation would it be best to leave the turtle alone or intervene? I personally think I need to observe her more to see whether the issue is worsening, but you guys probably know a lot more about this than I do.

Regardless, I'll check on her in the morning and provide some lettuce leaves and pellets. Would it be better to mince the lettuce I didn't see her really take the lettuce? I've also seen her munch on the stalks of aloe vera plants.
 

janevicki

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Box turtles are omnivores. They eat lots of different things to be healthy. Mine loves a bit of fruit and that is how I trick them to eat their veggies and their good protein (and some calcium suppliment). If you have some strawberries or just a tiny bit of mango and chop it up with some leafy greens or romaine lettuce also I add a little canned sardines with skin and bones. I get the sardines with skin and bones at Trader Joes. Right now you just want to get your boxie to eat so give her something she likes. She needs food and water to fuel her body to get well.

From my understanding from your description of your boxie, she could be very sick and not be among the living if her condition is not addressed properly. It would be really great if you could keep her in the garage or somewhere warm to keep her metabolism up so she can get well.

You are doing great for her and I admire your caring heart for your shell baby.
Best Wishes!
:):tort::<3:
 

mdane

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It's past midnight, unfortunately I couldn't get the temporary housing with heating set up for the turtle in time, I was a bit hesitant because the tank it was attached to was so small. Hurts to say, but she'll have to endure one more night in the outdoor enclosure (from observations in the past 15 hours she seems to have a lot of life, but that alone shouldn't be an excuse to hold off on providing care..)

As soon as I see sun in several hours I'll be making this a top priority. Warm soak and food servings is in order first, I'll be sure to post updates whenever possible (this time I'll try mincing the lettuce and adding a few aloe stalks along with the turtle pellets). I do have a >10gal tank in the garage, and I'll see if I can transfer the heating pad from the small tank to the larger one so at least there's a temperature gradient she can move between. What suffices as a substrate for the tank, preferably one that doesn't ignite due to the heating pad (if that's something I need to be concerned about)? Also it should be something I can find readily in a backyard environment as I won't be able to go out and purchase one.

Once again I'd like to thank the both of you, janevicki and mark1, for providing support for the past day. This turtle has been with me since ~2012/3 and has lived with us since, plus however long her previous owner raised her. There were times when I've felt pretty lost as to how to care for these turtles properly, but I've joined this forum to guide myself in the right path to ensure they live the best lives possible, and hopefully this one will make it through.
 

mdane

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Morning update:

Found the turtle chilling near the water tub, head held up and alert. She shortly went for a dip and a drink in the tub, and I also saw her urinate a little. Gave her another warm soak, this time using a larger tub for more water so the temperature of the water doesn't decrease too rapidly as heat goes into the turtle. I subsequently placed her in front of a new serving of lettuce, pellets, sliced aloe, and chopped bell peppers (should I remove the peppers? My parents left it in there but I'm not sure if it's part of their diet). She didn't eat and went straight into one of the burrows, I'm hoping this wasn't due to the issue she's having (i.e. perhaps me being around prompted her to hide rather than eat).

As always, I'll be checking in on her later today for the second warm water soak. I also got a container (with heating) ready to transfer her into for the night if needed.
 

mark1

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i'd agree with your parents , you can mess with her to the point of stressing her out ……. i'd soak her once a day ………. feed her normally , best case is to help her without her knowing it …… a heat lamp in her pen is not a bad idea , use it to warm the burrow even just the entrance , until the the weather is steadier and your confident in her health , just protect it from the rain ………….. they'll find it if they want to use it ……….. head up alert is a really good indication ……….. they don't need to eat that often , it's the advantage to being"cold blooded" …...
 

mdane

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Thanks for the advice! Would it also be beneficial if I relocated the enclosure back to where there's sunlight for most of the day? That's what I initially had it as until spikes in temperatures and the issue the turtle was having led me to believe that higher temperatures and the lack of shade were the main causes, so I moved it to where there's sunlight from 8am to roughly 3pm.
 

mark1

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8 hrs sun is fine , more is fine they just need lots of cover to hide from the sun , or not ……… you want them in a permanent place so they can develop their habits and not be disrupted …..……..
 

mdane

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Yeah, I agree. I'll probably make a separate post regarding enclosure-specific questions (because I have a lot, haha).

Another update, Houdini (where are my manners, I never gave her name since posting this) is doing well, this marks the second day straight that she hasn't shown the odd behavior. She shows signs of movement about the enclosure and possible consumption of food (hard to tell since I have two other turtles in the enclosure too).

I'll continue to provide warm soak treatment to ensure that she's healthy, and I'll be sure to come back here in the case that her situation worsens. Thanks all!
 

janevicki

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Morning update:

Found the turtle chilling near the water tub, head held up and alert. She shortly went for a dip and a drink in the tub, and I also saw her urinate a little. Gave her another warm soak, this time using a larger tub for more water so the temperature of the water doesn't decrease too rapidly as heat goes into the turtle. I subsequently placed her in front of a new serving of lettuce, pellets, sliced aloe, and chopped bell peppers (should I remove the peppers? My parents left it in there but I'm not sure if it's part of their diet). She didn't eat and went straight into one of the burrows, I'm hoping this wasn't due to the issue she's having (i.e. perhaps me being around prompted her to hide rather than eat).

As always, I'll be checking in on her later today for the second warm water soak. I also got a container (with heating) ready to transfer her into for the night if needed.
Glad you saw her peeing. Some turtles are more secretive than others. If weather is warm and she seems active now. I think she is on the mend. ?
 

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